"I was wondering where do non religious, non belivers,kafir whatevers fit in to the sceme. I belive religion is and has always been the plauge in our civilazation. A great modern day example Muslium fundalmest. Old example Catholic inquizition. I mean it never does any one any good more than bad. Look at the preists of today their 15% pediphiles hiding under the cloth. As for muslium Fund. I'd just assume full anilation that would get rid of them and cause the musliums on the edge of the fence to put up or shut up. Hopefully they will put up so we can shut them up. Without religous zelots this world would get along a little better. Mabey" I'm getting sick and tired of "non religious" people complaining about religion, and saying that it is the "plague of our civilization", mainly because of two reasons: 1) They are incredibly caught up in the problems people have caused in the name of religion, and instead of solving those problems, they blame the whole thing on the religion itself. 2) They almost always finish by saying that without religion this world would be a better place, and that muslims should be removed, killed, made to stop being muslims etc. My question is this, what makes you any better than the spanish inquisitors?

My question is this, what makes you any better than the spanish inquisitors? It's not that I would like to see anyone be removed from the face of this earth. It's just that so many muslims have choosen to do the same to western civilization. I'm not saying you are one of these mulims. I opposed as much towards any kind of moral-religious ideas of others being pushed onto non religous hethens like me. I was saying there are western hating muslims and there are muslims who have to decide where they stand. Like Bush said your either with us or against us. I don't want to see muslims all rounded up and killed. But I don't trust them. Even the good ones if it come down to it will side always with their religous brain washed brothers before, only time will tell. Just to be consistant Religios ideas are and has always been the leading cause for pain and suffering in this world through out history. and nodody can dispute that.

I'm sorry, but I think everything you said is just a rediculous statement that ought to be laughed at. You have just shown me one thing, no matter how different you claim to be from the "religious" crowd, you are the same. You think you are right, and therefore everyone else is wrong. You're entire beliefe system is just an either/or fallacy: either you dump religion and there will no more pain, or you accpet religion and bring on the pain. I'm sorry, but that's just too naive to accpet. Have you ever sat down and thought "what if there is a religious system that doesn't bring on pain (mass murders)? What was in spain before the spanish inquisition? What was in Jerusalem before the Crusades? Those two are the most famous examples that no one can argue with. In spain, MUSLIMS, CHRISTIANS, and JEWS lived together in peace and harmony under Islamic rule, that peace was disturbed when the christians came and decided to kill the rest. Same thing in Jerusalem and the area now known as palestine. Muslims and christians lived in Jerusalem, and muslims, christians, and jews lived in surrounding area, all was happy until the Christians, again decided to kill everyone. So my point is simple, it is possible to have a fair and just system coming from a religion and it has happened. I think you need to study the History of those regions before you generalize and say that religion is the CAUSE of pain and crazy people who decide to kill innocent people.

Dear muslim, You laugh at my statment and then back it up. The fact of the matter is religion not just islamic have torn this world apart at times throughout history. What I want to say is that why should any one have to the right to dictate religous ideas on others much less kill people over it. It happens in every religion. I say like I see it. I see muslim extremists angry and causing major problems in the world TODAY. Over what? their religous Ideas. Now that is affecting everybody, And what do they want? every non muslim dead. Mabey You being of the muslim faith are not bothered by this. If the mormans where doing the same thing I'd be bothered by that as well. I just don't think Religion can run a state or live peacfully, mabey in the past but not today, there are to many wackos like Osama, the pope, Jerry fawell, Farakan, Al sharpton and jesse jackson just to name a few. Not saying religion cant help people it just not for everyone. I have sat down and pondered religion that doesn't bring on pain, The closest I can come to is Budisim, But isn't that what those lunnybins do in China? I can't think of one. So I guess I think the way I think In your eyes I may be stupid or nieve, But this is the way my mind thinks until I see otherwise. It's an argument that can never be won or lost. Just like religon it self.

The reason why I laugh isn't because I because I don't think religion has brought pain, History speaks for itself. I laugh because you are making a generalization, you take the extreme, and make it the default. THAT IS A BIG MISTAKE. Can religion bring pain? yes, but then again, so can driving a car. does that mean we shouldn't drive? It all depends on how YOU use religion, not on how others use it. If you think killing people just beacuse of their religion is wrong, fine, you don't have to do it, and BTW, I agree. The biggest reason why I laughed was because you rejected religion because of an extreme (majority or minority, they are an extreme). And while you claim to be intellectual and bright (at least that's what most atheists think) they fail to use their logic to see how religion can be used to do good, not only on individuals, but on entire societies. And one more thing, I am not saying that religion should avoid war, that would unrealistic. When I said that a religion can bring peace, I mean to the people in general. Will there be wars? No doubt about it, but will that war be carried out in a humane manner? That's what religion can do, if you let it.

Dear Muslim, While I respect your opinon and your views are understandable I just somehow arrive at my own conclusion that religion while not being for everyone (ME) is interupting the peace in the world. Sure if everyone turned muslim I'm sure we would find another reason to fight and kill over. But why do people have to kill in the name of religion. Didn't God say vengence is all his?

"Dear Muslim, While I respect your opinon and your views are understandable I just somehow arrive at my own conclusion that religion while not being for everyone (ME) is interupting the peace in the world. Sure if everyone turned muslim I'm sure we would find another reason to fight and kill over. But why do people have to kill in the name of religion. Didn't God say vengence is all his?" I'm sorry if I come out a bit narrow minded, but I just feel that it is a mistake to blame wars on religion. People kill for many reasons, not all of them are religious. I personally don't think war is a bad thing, as long as it is ONLY used to root out opressors, and bring to the people the system that they want. Even though I agree that the killings carried out in the name of Islam today are based on that same principle, it is my duty to inform you that those killings aren't based on Islam; simply because, like you stated, these people are doing what is God's job, vengance against those who don't believe in Him. I realize that you have your opinion and I have mine, but that is why we are here, to discuss, and sometimes, defend our opinions. With that being said, I would just like to demonstrate how wars, pain, and mass killings aren't caused by religion: the most recent example USSR. A system that is based on many things, most importantly, that there IS NO GOD. My point is simple, ANYONE has the capabilities of being a mass murderer and bringer of pain, they don't need any religious justification to do it. If you want to discuss that point, please feel free to say what you want, I will try to welcome your comments with an open mind.

The problem with the statement "the world would be better off without religion" is that it assumes A. Our physical life is all that there is. If there is something else than the assumption flies out the window. And no one has explained to me how it can be proved whether or not their is "something else", so the statement is based on incomplete knowledge B. That sum of the cruelties done in the name of God's alledged will, are worse than the sum of the cruelties that would have been done. As it is human nature for the strong to prey on the weak if they dare, this is dubious. C. That the judgement that cruelty is bad would have any meaning at all if there was no moral system