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Subject: Does Islam Preclude Democracy?
Phoenix Rising    10/4/2002 8:12:37 AM
This is primarily to Muslim, since he seems to be the primary advocate of political Islam here. I've been wondering about this for a while now, just never got it into words. Why should Islam, if there is one particular correct interpretation of it, be inimical to democracy? I'm thinking here particularly in terms of the British parliamentary system, where almost all legislative and executive powers ultimately reside in parliament. If there is anything that all Houses of Parliament universally agree on, it won't make the London Times, but it will definitely get put into effect. I'm not sure that they agree on much more than that the sky is blue, but in principle, if the tenets of Islam were so universal, then they would almost certainly be democratically legislated in the parliament of any Islamic state as easily and uncontroversially as the U.S. Congress does such things as naming federal buildings. Furthermore, in a representative country, a vast majority of which would be theoretically composed of Muslims, any individual or party perceived as un-Islamic would quickly lose power, the way that scandal-tainted politicians tend to collapse here. Parties that eschewed Islam would have little chance of political success. The constitution of an Islamic state would almost certainly permit political lobbying on religious grounds, which I think would be innocuous enough that the West would not raise too many strenous objections, and the mosques tend to be influential and resourceful in the Islamic world. Whenever experts would be called to testify before the legislature, as legislatures are wont to so, they would almost certainly be drawn from Islamic universities and similar institutions. At the moment, the climate there favors the extremists. The prevailing view that there is only "one true interpretation" of Islam means that for one Muslim to disagree with another is practically a challenge to a duel ... and the extremists tend to be the ones who are the most well-armed and the most ruthless. More proportional representation might do some good at moving the debate back towards the center, and might make some of the currently silent centrists, if they're there, feel a greater sense of empowerment and a willingness to take on the extreme elements of society. The inevitable compromises of democratic politics might make it seem like a "pure" interpretation of Islam is getting lost in the mix somewhere. However, the existence of so many different interpretations of Islam as the world stands today seems to indicate that no living human has the 100% perfect solution today. As such, the inevitable compromises seem more likely to bring about a result as close to whatever the "true" interpretation might be as imperfect humans are capable of estimating. In short, there is no reason why a Muslim democracy looks like it would be any less Islamic than an Islamic dictatorship or theocracy ... if that is honestly and truly what the people of the Muslim world really want. I hope that this is what ends up happening in Iran, and hopefully Iraq as well, once Saddam is gone. Time will tell. --Phoenix Rising
 
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muslim    RE:Does Islam Preclude Democracy?   10/6/2002 3:41:41 AM
Well, there are a few things I would like to address before answering your question. First of which is the concept of the one true interpretation of Islam, no such thing exists. Ever since the prophet died, there had been more than one interpretation of the Quran and Sunnah, the only difference between then and now is that back then the people knew how to interpret Islam, so most interpretations back then were from the Quran and Sunnah. Today, on the other hand, most interpretations are done by twisting the meanings of verses and Hadiths so that they seem to agree with ones opinion. All I am saying is that we as muslims need to know how to understand Islam, and we can disagree, as long as we don't disagree on the basics. Now, about the "Islamic Democracy". Well, you need to understand that we as muslims have only one refrence for the issues regarding our lives, and that is the Quran and Sunnah. To make the answer short, everything we do in our lives MUST have a refrence in the Quran and Sunnah, and that includes the political system. I am not calling for an Islamic dictatorship, if you look at the Islamic system, it is as far away from a dictatorship as democracy is. To demonstrate I will quote Omar bin Khattab, the third caliph: "If you see me doing what allah has commanded, follow me, if you see me doing what allah has forbid, correct me" then a man stood up with his sword in the air saying "We will correct you with this" and Omar smiled. So basically, in an Islamic system, if the ruler is doing something in disobedience of Islam, he is corrected by the people, the scholars, and the judges. My point is simple, we already have a system of checks and balances in Islam, and in that system, everyone is allowed to express their opinion regarding the ruler, even the non-muslims are allowed to say that the ruler is worng; so we don't need democracy, we already have a system to choose a caliph, very similar to voting. And the term for each caliph is a life term, or until he is removed by the people. I'm not sure if I explained all too well, so if you see something wrong in what I said please let me know, I will explain.
 
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American Kafir    RE:Does Islam Preclude Democracy?   10/6/2002 7:38:23 PM
>>I am not calling for an Islamic dictatorship, if you look at the Islamic system, it is as far away from a dictatorship as democracy is. To demonstrate I will quote Omar bin Khattab, the third caliph: "If you see me doing what allah has commanded, follow me, if you see me doing what allah has forbid, correct me" then a man stood up with his sword in the air saying "We will correct you with this" and Omar smiled. So basically, in an Islamic system, if the ruler is doing something in disobedience of Islam, he is corrected by the people, the scholars, and the judges.<< Cute. Under Islamic law, non-Muslims aren't allowed to own weapons.
 
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Matt Smith    RE:Does Islam Preclude Democracy?   10/7/2002 7:48:33 PM
Mmmm... Muslim, you seem to be advocating a benevolent dictatorship which is fine if that's what you want. Personally, I think that the ballot is a preferable means of accountability when compared to a sword. Regardless of what you might think of the current leadership.
 
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muslim    RE:Does Islam Preclude Democracy?   10/12/2002 6:06:48 PM
"Mmmm... Muslim, you seem to be advocating a benevolent dictatorship which is fine if that's what you want. Personally, I think that the ballot is a preferable means of accountability when compared to a sword. Regardless of what you might think of the current leadership." I am not saying that we should correct our leaders with our swords (or guns at this point in time), but I am saying that within Islam, a leader MUST be corrected with any means necessary... but ofcourse, words do come before swords.
 
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American Kafir    RE:Does Islam Preclude Democracy?   10/12/2002 11:34:35 PM
>>Mmmm... Muslim, you seem to be advocating a benevolent dictatorship which is fine if that's what you want. Personally, I think that the ballot is a preferable means of accountability when compared to a sword. Regardless of what you might think of the current leadership<< Matt, I prefer my ideal. Bullets and ballots. I have bullets to make sure my ballot counts.
 
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American Kafir    RE:Does Islam Preclude Democracy?   10/12/2002 11:39:57 PM
>>I am not saying that we should correct our leaders with our swords (or guns at this point in time), but I am saying that within Islam, a leader MUST be corrected with any means necessary... but ofcourse, words do come before swords.<< But when your words say the Islamic nation has no borders, and only Muslims may have swords, but non-Muslims can have swords, and if a non-Muslim kills a Muslim he must die, but if a Muslim kills a non-Muslim he's a hero, well, quite frankly, your system sucks.
 
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American Kafir    RE:Does Islam Preclude Democracy?   10/13/2002 12:05:48 AM
last post should read: But when your words say the Islamic nation has no borders, and only Muslims may have swords, but non-Muslims >*CAN'T*< have swords, and if a non-Muslim kills a Muslim he must die, but if a Muslim kills a non-Muslim he's a hero, well, quite frankly, your system sucks. But even then, it's not a question of who can own swords, or guns if you prefer. A nation with no borders is an international network of like-minded Dar al-Islam anarcho-seperatists (or terrorists, if it offends thee) carrying out fatwahs on the inhabitants of Dar al-Harb from the mullahs, or even the Caliph. Right now it looks like Osama Bin Laden is filling those shoes. But even if he weren't, you can't have an international legal system separate from the rest of the world's rather humorous attempt at an international legal system. Especially if we grant a voice to the Dar al-Islam in the United Nations, and the United Nations gets no voice in return in your "perfect" system while non-Muslims are killed all over the world in the name of Islam. Pretty soon, the whole non-Islamic world rises up and starts killing in the name of Survival. I know "islam" in Arabic originally meant the same thing, victory over long odds, before Muhammed turned it into a war cry / threat.
 
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muslim    RE:Does Islam Preclude Democracy?   10/13/2002 3:29:29 AM
"But when your words say the Islamic nation has no borders, and only Muslims may have swords, but non-Muslims can have swords, and if a non-Muslim kills a Muslim he must die, but if a Muslim kills a non-Muslim he's a hero, well, quite frankly, your system sucks." In case you haven't noticed, I chose to ignore the first response you posted, and I will ignore this as well, I'm just waiting to hear what PR has to say. And another thing, I don't know if PR would agree with me on this, but it seems that everytime me and him try to discuss something, you have to come in and divert the discussion, so I would appreciate it if you don't get involved in this one, unless PR doesn't mind.
 
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muslim    RE:Does Islam Preclude Democracy?   10/13/2002 3:31:18 AM
". Especially if we grant a voice to the Dar al-Islam in the United Nations, and the United Nations gets no voice in return in your "perfect" system while non-Muslims are killed all over the world in the name of Islam." Dar-ul-Islam won't have a voice in the UN.
 
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American Kafir    RE:Does Islam Preclude Democracy?   10/13/2002 6:21:16 AM
"But when your words say the Islamic nation has no borders, and only Muslims may have swords, but non-Muslims can have swords, and if a non-Muslim kills a Muslim he must die, but if a Muslim kills a non-Muslim he's a hero, well, quite frankly, your system sucks." >>In case you haven't noticed, I chose to ignore the first response you posted, and I will ignore this as well, I'm just waiting to hear what PR has to say. And another thing, I don't know if PR would agree with me on this, but it seems that everytime me and him try to discuss something, you have to come in and divert the discussion, so I would appreciate it if you don't get involved in this one, unless PR doesn't mind<< Ah well hell, pilgrim. All we gotta do is ask him. He's one of them there lawyer types, so I'm sure he'll let you evade the question if you ask permission. Shoot, I'll ask him myself. Hey Phoenix, do you mind if Muslim continues to toot out of his ass the virtues of the superior Islamic governmental system without national boundaries but global jurisdiction to kill the kafirs where they are found?
 
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