Not that your comment really deserves a reply... but the death of those not involved in America's forigen policy is not a good thing. Those people had NOTHING to do with how america goverens it's self or its forigen policy. They were innocent victims... just like innocent Iraqis who die because of soul-less people like the two bushes and clinton...just like the innocent Gujrati Muslims killed by a soul-less hindu mob. It is regretable that you think otherwise.

I’m surprised that Sysops has not nuked your odious statements yet. Gloating at the 9/11 massacres by the Roach King Bin Laden (OBL) and blaming his indefensible crimes solely on the US is comparable to blaming black people for being targeted by the Ku Klux Klan, telling them they should change their ways(whatever that means) to prevent more racial attacks. No country- whether the US or any other free nation- is obliged to change their policies to satisfy the demands of terrorists and violence for pleasure psychopaths like OBL. The real reason why the AQ conspiracists carried out their atrocities is because they want to rule the world, starting with the Middle East before moving on to the rest of the planet. They have horrifically mutated religion to serve their messianic fantasies of establishing themselves as emperors of a lost golden age. And they hate America for it will strongly oppose their evil schemes. Do you sincerely believe that the lives of 3000 people in New York, DC and Pennsylvania mattered less than the satisfaction of OBL’s bigoted, schizophrenic vision of how the world should work? One who thinks like this can be compared to the moral relativist who believes that the robber’s desire to gain cash for his expenses matters more than his victim’s continued possession of his property. You accused the US of treating Muslims like scum. Which Muslims do you refer to? How can the eviction of Iraqi forces from Kuwait or the refusal to allow the genocidal extermination of Israel by Arafat’s mobs be considered to be a slight on all Muslims? When the US sided with Egypt in the Suez crisis against Britain and Israel in 1956, assisted the Afghans against the Soviet occupation and preserved Saudi Arabia’s independence from Saddam in the Gulf War? Aren’t Egypt and Pakistan the second and third highest recipients of US economic aid? Didn’t the US led NATO alliance stop Milosovic from massacring the Kosovon Muslims? Is it selective memory that you and other like thinkers forget all the favours America has done for some Muslim states/factions, while you curse them for standing up to the basest tyrants simply because some are Muslim themselves??? America does NOT have any obligation to apologise to ANYONE for 9/11 as it is solely the fault of the perpetrators. Demanding such a statement is comparable to claiming that a raped woman should apologise to the rapist for tempting him into the act. Too bad you refer to the resistance to Islamist terrorists or the defeat of Saddam as an attack on all Muslims, since it clearly isn’t. If you invest your religion’s identity and honour in homicidal, vain-glorious human trash, then you will see that identity and honour flushed down the latrine of humiliation over and over, because no terrorist or tyrant who threatens the free world’s security can use religion to claim immunity from the retribution thy deserve. The real enemies of Islam and Muslims are the Al Qaeda and other Islamists terrorists, because their foul acts against Muslim and ‘Infidel’ alike have disgraced the Islamic faith immeasurably. America will prevail- even if the leftists, neo-Nazis and pro-terrorists wish the opposite. I’m surprised that Sysops has not nuked your odious statements yet. Gloating at the 9/11 massacres by the Roach King Bin Laden (OBL) and blaming his indefensible crimes solely on the US is comparable to blaming black people for being targeted by the Ku Klux Klan, telling them they should change their ways(whatever that means) to prevent more racial attacks. No country- whether the US or any other free nation- is obliged to change their policies to satisfy the demands of terrorists and violence for pleasure psychopaths like OBL. The real reason why the AQ conspiracists carried out their atrocities is because they want to rule the world, starting with the Middle East before moving on to the rest of the planet. They have horrifically mutated religion to serve their messianic fantasies of establishing themselves as emperors of a lost golden age. And they hate America for it will strongly oppose their evil schemes. Do you sincerely believe that the lives of 3000 people in New York, DC and Pennsylvania mattered less than the satisfaction of OBL’s bigoted, schizophrenic vision of how the world should work? One who thinks like this can be compared to the moral relativist who believes that the robber’s desire to gain cash for his expenses matters more than his victim’s continued possession of his property. You accused the US of treating Muslims like scum. Which Muslims do you refer to? How can the eviction of Iraqi forces from Kuwait or the refusal to allow the genocidal extermination of Israel by Arafat’s mobs be considered to be a slight on all Muslims? When the US sided with Egypt in the Suez crisis against Britain and Israel in 1956, assisted the Afghans against the Soviet occupation and preserved Saudi Arabia’s independence from Saddam

By the way, if my previous reply to H. Gorgi is too long, let me summarise that I'm not slamming the Islamic faith- I just don't believe that religious terrorists can ever claim to define how faith should be practised especially when it sanctions mass murder. It'd be great if religious tolerance is the norm, but at the same time threats should be responded to with the appropriate measures, even if the enemy plays the race/faith card. TF

ew... someone's digging in the graveyard of the pre-Sysop days. Haven't seen Hasib the terrorist around here in a while. Let's leave dead threads alone. They stink.

There was a certain rich man who arose from his rest after saying his morning prayers went out to do his work. While he was yet stretching his muscles for the days labor he saw a great smoke coming from the direction of his home. Then quickly he and his fellow laborers rushed home to discover what was amiss. The discovered there a great tragedy had occurred to the home of the rich man's neighbor and kinsman. Soon word arrived to him that a stranger whom he barely knew had come to the house of his neighbor. And when the stranger had obtained entry to the house with decieving words, he took a knife and slew its inhabitants man, woman, and child. Then he set flame to the house and burned and it was this smoke which was visible over the whole of the town. Then the rich man learned that many of the murder's kinsman had begun rejoicing and others shouted, "This was done as a warning to you and you deserved it because of your great wealth." But none could tell the rich man what crime the innocents who died in the house were guilty of, and when he inquired concerning the stranger he found that he had mismanged his household until it was ruined and his family wretched, that he had done violence to all his neighbors until he had no friends, that he had allowed criminals and thieves to enter into his house and rule over him, and that he was want to sit at the gates of the village half naked and cry out with a loud voice how his foolishness was not his fault but because the world had done him injustice. And it seemed that this same man was wont to tell all the villagers that by right he should be king and lord over all of them, and that he of all people would be the most blessed of all by the Almighty God, blessed be His most Holy name, if it was not for the fact that corrupt men somehow managed to continually thwart the will of God. So the rich man looked to his kinsman and neighbors and said, "We should indeed heed this warning. For the loss of the home is but a small loss, and we may rebuild. But the lives of our kinsman we cannot repair, and if we do not heed this warning then it may come to pass that we also will become the victem of an assasine's blade. Now let us take up our swords against this family of brigands and robbers and all who do not repent of thier crime we will put to the sword, blood for the blood of my neighbor and kinsman. And as for the children, peasants, women and those who seem to be in there right mind, let us spare them, for I deem that this low estate that they have come to is a curse of God that has come upon them. For see, though they should know better than to worship the images of men, see how it is that they erect statues to mere men, and place on every wall images of men, and give praise and great obsequious to these immoral men. It may be that when we have thrown down these men who would make themselves a god, and cast down the images and statues that they have made to honor themselves, that the curse God has placed on them will be lifted from them, and then they will prosper and trouble us no longer." And so it was agreed, and the rich man because of the warning he had recieved took his sword and with his friends and kinsman began to slaughter and dismay his enemies. And there were some who said, "See God will give us the victory over the rich man and he will commit suicide at the doors of our home.", but they were proven to be liars and fools. And others said, "Why have you taken up your sword? Did you not heed the warning." And the rich man said, "It was because I heeded the warning, that I took up my sword and changed my former policies." Now then, listen and give heed to my warning. He who diligently seeks good finds favor, but trouble will come to him who seeks evil. The sight of an army arrayed for battle warns the coward to beg for mercy, but at the sight of soldiers the brave are called to arms. If the strong man prepares for an honorable blow, how much more so then does injustice move him to anger! Do not stir to anger those whom God has prospered, for it is God who determines who sits on the thrones of the Earth. If a man calls himself a prophet, let him show where God's prophets have prophecied of his coming. It maybe that 9-11 was need to show America the Truth. But be mindful that it may not be the truth that you think it shows.

Well done.

Well said Trigga.

Celebrim and Trigga--both well said. Trigga's was so well said he posted it three times! Celebrim, did you make that up or did you find that somewhere? That was great!

I'm glad you like it. Some here find me too 'prolix'. I like to write, and when I get riled up I just keep going and going. Except for a quotation from the Proverbs, that's all out of me wee head. As you might could tell, I've just about had as much as I can take and I'm running out of patience. Turning it into a parable seemed a nice way to be, shall we say, forceful without being overtly rude. I'm too tired ever for that tonight. It is very politically incorrect for me to say so, but after reading the Koran I could never convert to Islam. I'd never worship a god that writes that badly. The Koran is self evidently not the Word of God simply because if God would be bothered to put down his words, he'd do a better job of it. Give me the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and of Peter, James, and Paul. My God knows how to write a book, and not only is it beautiful the way it was first written down, its beautiful know matter what you translate it into. "And though I have the gift of prophecy and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing. Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; does not rejoice iniquity, but rejoices in truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails...When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know as I also am known. And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love." Someone sure needs to be shown the truth here. You may draw your sword of truth and bring your best wordplay against me, but don't come shouting your pathetic hate filled war cries and expect me cower or parley. Hate has never conquered love, and never will. I gotten tired of not speaking the truth. It has worn me out. So here is the truth, and let those that are wise heed it. Some people think that God blessed the Arab people by sending them a Prophet. I tell you that if God had blessed the Arab people, then they would be blessed indeed. But they are not blessed, and anyone with eyes can see it. I tell you the truth, everything that has transpired to the Arab people in the last 1400 years is not a blessing but the fulfillment of God's curse. For he said to Hagar, "He shall be a wild man; His hand shall be against every man, and every man's hand against him." If the Arab people want to escape from thier misery, then they should put thier fists down, learn love, and beg of God to release them. When the 'Arab street' comes over here and start shaking thier fists at the board, it only proves the wisdom of what I say. Study your history and you will see that it is so.

Gents: those were both fantastic posts. Celebrim, You're not a total newbie, but I'll take this opportunity to welcome you and Trigga too - I've seen some really great posts from you both in the last few days. Keep it up - they are a pleasure to read. This is in fact a VERY old thread. it began shortly before SYSOPs policy began being enforced as we see it to this day. the troll hasib gorgi has not resurfaced in (someone put me straight here) about a year? Don't expect the islamofacsist to reply to your thread - and if he did, it would be thoughtless drivel, more threats, ranting, that sort of thing. There was no reasoning with the troll. not that I personally had the patience to do so in the first place! Bless you celebrim for your patience. Cheers, E.