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Subject: Aisha
Muslim to Ump    9/5/2002 3:21:07 AM
I see that the key issue in regards to Islam is Aisha. Simply because it seems to be a very common misconception that she was 6 when married to the prophet. Before I go into the details, I would like to explain who Bukhari and Muslim collected the hadith. 1)one needs to understand that the hadith was collected three or four generations after the prophet died, so there will be fabricated hadiths reported in these books. 2)Back then, it took a very long time for someone to gather the amount of hadiths gathered, Bukhari traveled for months just becuase he heard of a person in a far away city who is said to know a few hadiths. So seeing who widespread and how far apart those people were, it was very easy for someone to inject some fabricated haiths to the collection of Bukhari and muslim. 3)Seeing how much time and effort it took, neither of them was concerened in filtering the hadiths based on content. They did it only throught the chain of reporters. (Hadith reached their generation mostly through Oral tradition) Bottom line, not everything in their collections are 100% accurate. The fact that it was carried through Oral tradition for a few generation alone makes some of the hadith very inaccurate. SO just because a hadith is in Bukhari or Musilm, it doesn't mean it is true. That is one reason why I believe this hadith regarding aisha is fabricated. Anyways, I need to get the name of this book from a friend. The author wrote the book in an attempt to degrade Muslim women, and how Islam treats women. From what my friend tells me, Aisha was the reason he failed in degrading women, he quoted him directly saying something like this. This book would be a great proof as to how the claim about Aisha isn't true for many reasons, 1)the author is not muslim, 2)when researching about her, he was forced to change his opinion because of what he discovered. Give me a few days, I gurantee you that I will get the name, author, and maybe the exact pages as to where this guy discusses this topic. As for all the rest of AK's arguments, I have clearly shown him the proper way of looking at verses in the quran, I can't find that post now, seeing that you found one of the early ones, please let me know how could I find mine. The point I made in that point was based on how the greates muslim scholars viewed those same exact verses that Ak brought up, and how they never applied them the way Ak implies they were applied. I also explain in great detail that great error in the way AK took those verse out of the context of Islam and the quran, and what is the proper way of analyzing the Quran. I don't want to explain it again because it really is a long process, much easier to do than to describe. The bottom line was that AK's usage and understanding of those verses were false, and were not at all shared by the muslims who lived near the time of the Prophet. They were only his understanding of the Quran, NOT Islam's outlook towards those statements. So Ump, you may think that AK shut me down and broke my sword, but the fact of the matter is that I clearly explained why and how is wrong, but no one cared to notice or listen, for that I blame all of you who read that post and decided to disregard it simply to prove that they are right. That is the truth about what happened, not your selective snapshots. I wonder who is more biased, me? who accurately defended Islam or you and Ak? who deliberately disregarded my refutal to their arguments, and only showed the part of the Argument when Ak made his statement and didn't even bother show my answers.
 
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Muslim    RE: Aisha~~~6yr old victim or coniving woman ?   9/5/2002 10:52:06 AM
It's not my fault that the subject requires time and length. But I did, very clearly, and very accurate demonstrate the proper way one should look at any single verse or hadith in the quran, but you guys would reject it because you know that by doing so, one can't possibly come to the conclusion that killing civilians is allowed in Islam, for example. Simply following the same protocol that muslim scholars have used would take you to the same conclusions they would have reached if they were alive today, that every AK is saying is false and none of the major historical scholars of Islam agreed with anything Ak implies says. What I showed you was how muslims used to look at those same issues, and they caried the view I illustrated, they progressed in every aspect of life, it is when muslims started to view Islam the way AK does that they became what they are today. If you don't want to see that, that is your fault, not mine. Anyways, I'm going to see my friend today, hopefully, I would have the name of the book and author by tommorow, if not then saturday for sure.
 
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veritas    RE: Aisha~~~6yr old victim or coniving woman ?   9/5/2002 1:53:07 PM
"Blame away! However there was NOT, and never has been anything made "CLEAR" by your ramblings! What you did is what you always do! Cut in the FOG machine. You burden the reader with pages and pages of 1/2 truths, interspersed with falsehoods and selective and biased interpretations of fact and the record! I'll agree that a casual reading of your stuff hoodwinks the uninitiated, as his eye falls on your buff n' fluff, his brain dozes off. However the alert reader sees the distortions, ommisions, etc etc, that you constantly & consistantly use to becloud the substance & truth of a matter being debated. A rug merchants Baazar tricks is all!" Ad hominum and baseless accusations. What is a 1/2 truth in what Muslim said?
 
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SaleemAdam    RE: Aisha~~~6yr old victim or coniving woman ?   2/3/2003 4:59:43 PM
By far the best response regarding Ayesha's(RA) age. http://www.understanding-islam.com/related/text.asp?type=question&qid=375
 
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American Kafir    RE: Aisha (to SaleemAdam)   2/3/2003 6:50:15 PM
Your web-cited exegesis fails to address the hadiths which show Muhammad fantasizing about having sex with Aisha when she was a 3 year old, Abu Bakr's initial reluctance to give his child to Muhammad as a wife because of her young age, her marriage at age 6, Muhammad's "consummation" of the marriage when she was 9, the stated fact that Aisha and Muhammad were married 10 years when Muhammad died, and that Aisha was 17 when Muhammad died. I will provide the source hadiths at your request.
 
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muslim    RE: Aisha (to SaleemAdam)   2/3/2003 8:07:15 PM
looks like a months absence has brought back some old discussions.
 
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American Kafir    Muslim!   2/3/2003 11:44:14 PM
I thought you had gone and blown yourself up. Good to see you.
 
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SaleemAdam    RE: Aisha (to SaleemAdam)   2/4/2003 9:36:16 AM
Please provide source.
 
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American Kafir    RE: Aisha (to SaleemAdam)   2/4/2003 3:16:35 PM
From Sahih Bukhari- Narrated Aisha: The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Allright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age. Volume 5, Book 58, Number 234 <http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/058.sbt.html> Narrated 'Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13) Volume 8, Book 73, Number 151 <http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/073.sbt.html> Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: When I got married, Allah's Apostle said to me, "What type of lady have you married?" I replied, "I have married a matron' He said, "Why, don't you have a liking for the virgins and for fondling them?" Jabir also said: Allah's Apostle said, "Why didn't you marry a young girl so that you might play with her and she with you?' Sahih Al-Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 17 <http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/062.sbt.html>. From Sahih Muslim- Chapter 10: IT IS PERMISSIBLE FOR THE FATHER TO GIVE THE HAND OF HIS DAUGHTER IN MARRIAGE EVEN WHEN SHE IS NOT FULLY GROWN UP. 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house at the age of nine. She further said: We went to Medina and I had an attack of fever for a month, and my hair had come down to the earlobes. Umm Ruman (my mother) came to me and I was at that time on a swing along with my playmates. She called me loudly and I went to her and I did not know what she had wanted of me. She took hold of my hand and took me to the door, and I was saying: Ha, ha (as if I was gasping), until the agitation of my heart was over. She took me to a house, where had gathered the women of the Ansar. They all blessed me and wished me good luck and said: May you have share in good. She (my mother) entrusted me to them. They washed my head and embellished me and nothing frightened me. Allah's Messenger (, may peace be upon him) came there in the morning, and I was entrusted to him. Book 8, Number 3309 <http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/008.smt.html> 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old. Book 8, Number 3310 <http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/008.smt.html> 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old. Book 8, Number 3311 <http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/008.smt.html> From Sunan Dawud - Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin: The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) married me when I was seven or six. When we came to Medina, some women came. according to Bishr's version: Umm Ruman came to me when I was swinging. They took me, made me prepared and decorated me. I was then brought to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him), and he took up cohabitation with me when I was nine. She halted me at the door, and I burst into laughter. Book 41, Number 4915: <http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/abudawud/041.sat.html> Narrated AbuUsamah: The tradition mentioned above (No. 4915) has also been transmitted by AbuUsamah in a similar manner through a different chain of narrators. This version has: "With good fortune. " She (Umm Ruman) entrusted me to them. They washed my head and redressed me. No one came to me suddenly except the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) in the forenoon. So they entrusted me to him. Book 41, Number 4916
 
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American Kafir    RE: Aisha (to SaleemAdam) more...   2/4/2003 3:40:07 PM
Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64 <http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/062.sbt.html> Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death). Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65 <http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/062.sbt.html> Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that 'Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart)' Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88 <http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/062.sbt.html> Narrated 'Ursa: The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death). Sahih Bukhari 7.18 <http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/062.sbt.html> Narrated 'Ursa: The Prophet asked Abu Bakr for 'Aisha's hand in marriage. Abu Bakr said "But I am your brother." The Prophet said, "You are my brother in Allah's religion and His Book, but she (Aisha) is lawful for me to marry." Sahih Bukhari 9.140 <http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/087.sbt.html>Narrated 'Aisha: Allah's Apostle said to me, "You were shown to me twice (in my dream) before I married you. I saw an angel carrying you in a silken piece of cloth, and I said to him, 'Uncover (her),' and behold, it was you. I said (to myself), 'If this is from Allah, then it must happen.' Then you were shown to me, the angel carrying you in a silken piece of cloth, and I said (to him), 'Uncover (her), and behold, it was you. I said (to myself), 'If this is from Allah, then it must happen.' " Sahih Bukhari 5.236 <http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/058.sbt.html>. Narrated Hisham's father: Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old
 
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muslim    RE:Muslim!   2/5/2003 12:51:06 PM
I know, I was away for quite some time now.... To Saleem: Just want you to know that this discussion is old, and I won't be participating in it... But I will be checking it out and maybe have an input here or there. Looking forward to seeing how you will handle it...
 
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