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Subject: Thinking Green
SGTObvious    10/24/2003 11:55:45 AM
Thinking Green Once upon a time, in US intelligence circles, to "think red" meant to think from the point of view of the enemy. Publicly, we seem to be doing little of that. There are alot of people who are quick to ascribe attributes like "crazy", or "psychotic" to people who they are utterly unable to understand. They're wrong. Getting real here for a moment, "crazy", "Psychotic", "Delusional" are medical conditions. A Psychotic person does not trust or understand the input of his own senses. He thinks his lunbox is a space alien. The 9-11 terrorists were not psychotic. They fully understood that to cause maximum impact to the buildings, the jets would have to be steered in just the right manner- from the pit. A psychotic person, on the other hand, might well have imagined that the buildings could be destroyed by throwing cherry pits at them, or by sitting in his closet chanting, or perhaps that the buildings had already fallen, but the CIA was using Mind-Waves to hide this fact. In short, the psychotic neither trusts nor understands the input of his senses, and these terrorists were not psychotic. Calling them crazy is wrong. So how is it they came to the idea that destroying an office complex with 50,000 people inside is a good thing? Any system of thought, whether mathematical, legal, philosophical, etc, rests on a few assumptions- axioms- all the way at the bottom. Change axioms, and you can build an entirely self-consistent logic structure, flawless, yet diametrically opposed to everyone else's. And they have an axiom, and it goes like this: "Our religion is the one, perfect, exclusive truth". Bush was wrong when declared that the 9-11 terrorists were jealous of our freedoms. Our freedom is irrelevant to them. Their motives were the logical conclusion of a thought structure built on the assumption of "Our religion is the one, perfect, exclusive truth". To begin to see why, it is necessary to learn to think from that assumption. Look at the world from the angle of that assumption, and try to explain the world in terms of that assumption, without contradicting it. To begin with, its pretty obvious that the West is a world of incredible wealth, knowledge, opportunity and prosperity, while the Islamic world is not. Yet, the Book says it should be. It can't be wrong! So, what can we see, consistent with this logic structure: First, every religion has to deal with the question of why Bad things happen to Good people. It is one of the great endless theological debates. Why does a bad person become prosperous, while the good suffer? In Judeo-Christian philosophy, the answer is a sort of dodge- wealth doesn't really count, you see. Christian philosophy has been to go a step further and assume wealth is actually a hindrance to spirituality. Islam COULD have used that escape- Mohamed COULD have written a disregard for wealth into his sermons- but he didn't. Prosperity is an explicit promise of islam. So we go back to the problem: From the Islamic point of view, Where is Our prosperity? We cannot say that the west is doing something right while we are doing something wrong- that contradicts our root assumption. We MUST be doing right. So, therefore, SOMEONE else is messing up God's system. This path leads to the conclusions- we are poor and miserable because the Americans, Israelis, our own corrupt leaders, whatever the Enemy of the Day is, are TAKING OUR PROSPERITY. All of this is built on logic, and all the logic is built on just one assumption. Part of America's "PR" problem in the muslim world is that, from this point of view, even the BEST elements of our culture are regarded as weaknesses. In fact, our adoption of an element of culture is regarded as proof of its evil. Follow the logic: Observation: Americans (really, westerners, but the fact is, we are the focal point of the west) have adopted cultural element A. (What it is, exactly, is not relevant. It could be bowling. Or having skyscrapers). Muslims have not. Base assumption: Muslims are followers of the one and perfect truth. Following the one and perfect truth has not lead the Muslims to cultural element A. Not following the truth has lead the Americans to Cultural element A. Therefore, element A is a sign of not following the truth. As such, it is wrong in an of itself, and should be resisted. Where do you go from here? How do you reconcile with a system of logic built around an axiom you do not accept? Something you cannot do: Debate the axiom. Since the Muslim accepts the Axiom as true, and builds his logic structure from there, you get nowhere. All things prove the axiom, to one using the logic system constructed from the Axiom. If the Koran said that fish could speak, and you argued with a Muslim that since fish cannot speak, the Koran must be wrong, he would respond by telling you that of course fish can speak, the Koran says so, so now
 
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American Kafir    RE:Thinking Green   10/24/2003 2:09:21 PM
You're on the right path Sarge, but you're missing the twin components within the Islamic philosophy that provide the basis for deflecting serious challenges to their fallacious "Our religion is the one, perfect, exclusive truth" axiom. These are the concepts of abrogation and self-justification. For example, the word "islam" in Arabic before Muhammad came along always had a military connotation - "surrender" - but also was a term for a small, outnumbered force acheiving a victory against greater odds. The religious connotation is incidental and secondary. When such a legendary success in warfare was acheived, the smaller, but victorious force is said to have "done islam," in other words, they had found favor with "god" (or the "gods") as evidenced by their victory over seeming unsurmountable odds. The inherent trouble with this concept is that no small force enters a fight automatically "doing islam" *unless* they win. For example, after the seminal event of Muhammad's victory at the Battle of Badr in 624 AD, where Muhammad was outnumbered by the (decidedly ineffective) Meccan forces sent to stop his terrorist raids on lightly defended or defenseless caravans but acheived victory nonetheless, Muhammad's followers became known as "Muslims" - those that "do Islam" - or, "those who have acheived victory against the odds." It wasn't until years after the fall of Mecca and the consolidation of Arab lands under Muhammad's rule and the transcription of the Koran and Hadiths that "Islam" became the name of a religion. Before then, saying "do islam or die" ("surrender or die") to a Arabian was a threat. Subtract all the flowery language, and it remains the same today. Further examples of abrogation and self-justification would be the "hudna" before Muhammad had assembled the forces necessary to take Mecca after the victory at Badr. Upon returning from Mecca after making this "cease fire" agreement, Muhammad's associate Abu Bakr was questioning Muhammad's prophecy concerning the defeat of the city of Mecca and the blessings that would be secured for the "Muslims" who conquered it. Muhammad's reply was [in essence] "I didn't say we would take Mecca *today* so I wasn't lying," but nonetheless further prophesized that the Muslims would find blessings in attacking the "infidels" in another village, and lo and behold, after the inhabitants were slain, there was plenty of gold and slave girls to go around. Allah is most generous. It's almost like the cop-out Obi Wan Kenobi gives Luke Skywalker when confronted with the question "I thought you said Darth Vader killed my father!" In a manner of speaking, yes... but, not exactly honest.
 
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__nobody__    RE:Thinking Green   10/25/2003 4:30:00 PM
You are not thinking green yet. What the arabs don't like, as all other people is to suffer unjustice. If you talk to arabs you will see that some of them feel that they think they are being treated differantly than the rest of the world. It seems to them that the west always brings bad things to them. First colonial fights, then the west supports Israel than there is the problem with the Iranian Xa, then Iraq-Iran war then Iraq again and then again. So as you can see there is a lot that demagogic media can pick up to throw at the crowd. This leads to them saying that everything that comes from the west most certainly be bad. And they remember when they were a advanced civilization. So this leads to them wanting to be great again. So they try to get back to their origins. There you have why they try to enforce old costums. As you can see the fundamentalist is looking to the past instead to the future that is why they reject technological life-style by saying it is only proof of western decadence. The candidate tp become a suicide bomber is someone who has lost something he treasured. They no longer care what can happen to themselves, they just want to get back at the ones that inflicted him this pain. They have nothing to lose, so they just decide to take the largeste possible amount of enemies with them. It is not a question of envy, it is a matter of vengance. And suicide bomber are trained for it. In this post I am refering to fundamentalists, not arabs in general.
 
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Final Historian    RE:Thinking Green   10/26/2003 12:56:19 AM
Making some mistakes nobody. Arab education doesn't emphasize how Arab culture was once great, at least not in the sense you would understand it in the west. It depends on the country, true, but they are fairly poorly educated from our perspective. I doub they fully understand the comparison in advancement between early Muslims and Christian Europe. Suicide Bombers become such because they have been condition to the role since their birth. They have been promised rewards for becoming a martyr, and have also been told everyone would be proud of them if they were to become a Shaahid. Its not about having nothing to lose, to them, its about having everything to gain.
 
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