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Subject: SGT Obvious Manifesto 3 1/2- Good, Evil, and Evolution
SGTObvious    9/19/2003 1:06:12 PM
New Guy briefly made the point over on the China board, but it belongs here. It deserves a real Manifesto. Later. All I have time for is a mini-manifesto. Bemused beleives that Good and Evil are mere products of evolution. New Guy believes otherwise. I have read plenty of work by evolutionary scientists- in fact, in todays world, any real biologist is an evolutionary scientist. Evolution is the prevailing theory of how biology works, and its a good one, just as Einstein's equations are a good theory of how matter and energy in the universe. I am a beleiver, but I find the claims that evolution is somehow inconsistent with God to be silly- after all, believers generally don't have a problem with Einstein's theories, even though there are biblical references crediting God with controlling the motion of the stars and planets. There was that little flap over Gallileo, but we're feeling much better now, we're over that. Back to the Mini-festo. Good adn Evil are qualities. They are descriptions. They are solely moral in nature. They did not "evolve". This should be obvious. The strict "there is a scientific explanation for everyrthing" type (which I deeply respect, I am quite the Dawkins fan) will give plenty of theories on why a certain Good behaviour evolved, and why a certain Evil behaviour evolved. But... here it is, and after however many million years of evolution, we have BOTH behaviors. Humans can do things that are Good, and things that are Evil. We certainly recognize which is which. Make no mistake, even the Palestinian cheering for a suicide bomber KNOWS it is Evil. He will call it "resistance", but he knows it is Evil, and to protect his own feelings of pride and racial superiority he is forced into deeper and deeper fantasies. So the question is, if two sets of behaviours evolved, one universally recognized as good and one as evil, (there is no culture on earth, not even in France, where risking death to save a stranger's baby would be regarded as Evil)why do we recognize the difference? Evolution allows only for Selected traits and behaviour to be passed on. Reproductive success is the ONLY criteria allowed in Evolution, as bemused points out. So how do we get Good and Evil? Why is it that we can Universally label two actions, when the only plausible categories under Evolution would be "aids to reproductive success" or "hinders reproductive success"? Certainly, there are recognized good actions that fall under both. There are recognized evil actions that fall under both. From a strict evolutionary sense, we should see any action that hinders reproductive success as wrong, and any action that favors reproductive success as right. We don't. It is a mistake in religous belief to ascribe to God anything we can't explain satisfactorily by science. Yet, Morality, more than anything else, WANTS to be in the realm of God. It begs it. Going a bit further- Evolution takes time. We have instincts that have been with us from before the dawn of sentience. Human babies will instinctively react to predators they have never seen, and will never see except in zoos! It follows, then, that if evolution has created all that we call morality, it should be a morality fit for the human condition as per the millions of years we spent evolving. That is, small, competing, hunter-gatherer bands. To a hunter gatherer band, every stranger is an enemy, unless it is of the opposite gender, in which case it is an enemy and possible mate. Morality today is not like that. Heck, it wasn't like that 5,000 years ago. There may be people who behave like that, but moral people reject that behaviour and as far back as philosophical writings go, ALWAYS HAVE. So how can it be that we have intuitively, instinctively, rejected the code of evolved hunter gatherer bands in favor of a far kinder, gentler, and universal system of ethics? How is it possible that a planet full of diverse members of a far flung species are ALL aware, in their gut, in their conscience, of a morality that supercedes making babies or not? I beleive it is because we have a spark of the divine. I mentioned Genesis in Manifesto 1. I don't beleive it is literal. But it is very old. It goes back before the recorded existence of the Jewish people- parts are lifted from ancient Sumerian epics. The part about the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" is very, very old. Isn't it interesting that to ancient philosophers, trying to understand the soul of mankind, wrote a story that clearly shows that the START of the real journey of mankind was learning good from evil? This was the point were evolution was finished with us. It had taught all it could teach, and here we became something more than animals. Evolution taught us to value friends and family over strangers, and to squash bugs. Real Morality, which is all about UNREQUITTED acts of good, something utterly alien to evol
 
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American Kafir    RE:SGT Obvious Manifesto 3 1/2- Good, Evil, and Evolution   9/19/2003 1:56:48 PM
I became bored with the evolutionism vs. creationism debate years ago. Both sides have their merits and their egregious errors. Until someone invents a "theo-meter"* I don't think the debate will ever yield enlightenment in proportion to the time it consumes. * = [theo-meter (noun) - 1. A word American Kafir made up on the spot. 2. A hypothetical device used to measure the amount of divine influence present in the origin of a metaphysical concept, usually with a needle gauge graduated into monads per square ideology. See also "hoodwink"] Anyway, I think morality, if given a source outside the actions of men and real events becomes ultimately contradictory. Something in the vein of "there could be no theft if there were no private property, there could be no killing if all were dead." Theologically, as I touched on in my question to Manifesto 3 "Human Purpose," the only "perfect" state is one in which only "God" exists (prior to creation). The creation of the universe becomes the point source of evil. I'm not sure this is what religionists and theists want to be concluded from their arguments, but I've not seen any way around it.
 
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Rosecroix    RE:SGT Obvious Manifesto 3 1/2- Good, Evil, and Evolution   9/22/2003 2:03:04 PM
What you are speaking of is called a meme*. * = meme: (pron. 'meem') 1. A word Rosecruix didnt make up. 2. A contagious idea that replicates like a virus, passed on from mind to mind. Memes function the same way genes and viruses do, propagating through communication networks and face-to-face contact between people. The root of the word "memetics," a field of study which postulates that the meme is the basic unit of cultural evolution. Examples of memes include melodies, icons, fashion statements and phrases. check out: http://www.christianitymeme.org/ for some discussion on the christianity meme. It suggests that people with a very good set of meme's have better survival traits than others and therefor lives, and passes on the meme to more people. For example, agriculture would be an importent behaviour. what you asked yourself about why morality has so little to do with our thousandyears of evolution i think it fits very well, it's just that many people aren't moral. we are not inatetly moral. i belive morallity is a (set of)meme that coincides near perfect with largest amount of happiness to largest amount of people in the group holding these memes. in each person the morality memes are competing with the self interest and this struggle produce actual behaviour. well its food for thought anyway. /Rosecroix
 
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American Kafir    RE:SGT Obvious Manifesto 3 1/2- Good, Evil, and Evolution   9/22/2003 2:27:06 PM
I'd counter that by saying "meme theory" is a meme.
 
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Rosecroix    RE:SGT Obvious Manifesto 3 1/2- Good, Evil, and Evolution   9/23/2003 2:30:00 AM
yepp. and it will give me VICTORY! someday soon i hope :)
 
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Thomas    RE:SGT Obvious Manifesto 3 1/2- Good, Evil, and Evolution   9/23/2003 3:20:44 AM
Well I quite like AK Theometer as an indicator of which plans are most likely to turn bad. The more divine assistance the likelier the disaster. Keep things simple: Evolution is a very simple thing: Does it work, it lives, if not it dies. Moral is in my view the plan of action that in the long run is most likely to succeed. Problem: In the long run we are all dead. So much for the benefits of sex.
 
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American Kafir    RE:SGT Obvious Manifesto 3 1/2- Good, Evil, and Evolution   9/23/2003 5:23:56 PM
>yepp. and it will give me VICTORY!< See what I mean about "meme theory" being a "meme?" The very idea that other's ideas are a mental disease is itself a mental disease. As an atheist, I'm probably the last person you can count on to rise to the defense of someone else's Christianity. But describing their thought processes as an infectious viral disorder is an insult, not an argument. I hate arrogant atheists.
 
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Rosecroix    RE:SGT Obvious Manifesto 3 1/2- Good, Evil, and Evolution   9/29/2003 11:22:11 AM
do you ever more than glance on stuff? "other's ideas are a mental disease ". geez. making things up is funny huh?
 
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American Kafir    RE:SGT Obvious Manifesto 3 1/2- Good, Evil, and Evolution   9/29/2003 8:11:14 PM
>do you ever more than glance on stuff? "other's ideas are a mental disease ". geez. making things up is funny huh?< It would be funny if I were making it up. The site you posted a link to explains the spread of Christian ideology as a virus that affects the way people think, feel, and act. I'm sure such an idea of disparaging those you disagree with is "infectious" to Nazis, Soviet communists, and other leftist heroes of the extermination / re-education camp genre. You'd be more honest saying "How many bullets will it take to cure the world of people I don't like?"
 
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Rosecroix    RE:SGT Obvious Manifesto 3 1/2- Good, Evil, and Evolution   9/30/2003 12:43:22 AM
beh you seem pretty silly when you again post the site with out reading it. but its nice to see you backed away from claiming they called it a desease, so i guess you at least opened the page. a meme is not just a christian meme. the christian meme is one of them. meme is a theory of how cultural values spread. a meme is infectious in that it spreads between carriers who make conntact. for example, its more likely you are a fan of your local baseball team than any other, since many people you come into conntact with also are. if you abide by the meme theory (as they indeed do), you belive that all cultural entites, ideas, religions, behaviour, catch phrases, gingles, fashions etc are propgated through conntact and changes or creates a value in the infected. they are not invalidating chrisitanity because it spraeds, they are against (in essence) it because they feel it is hypocritical to promote one set of values and propagate through the use of much nobler methods than love and forgivness. but youd know this if you actually had read even the first 2/3 of the frontpage of the site. /Rosecroix Enlightening you since 2002.
 
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Rosecroix    RE:SGT Obvious Manifesto 3 1/2- Good, Evil, and Evolution   9/30/2003 12:45:03 AM
*much less nobler i meant of course.
 
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