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Subject: ww2 Yamato vs Iowa class
capt soap    9/17/2005 12:55:11 PM
How would this fight turn out? the Iowa's 16 inch guns against the Yamato 18 guns? The iowa had radar,which one would sink the other 1 on 1.
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bunkerdestroyer    RE:ww2 Yamato vs Iowa class   10/20/2005 11:21:55 PM
My opinion is that the Yamato would have won hands down earlier in the war when its crew were of higher calibre....In 1945, they still would have won assuming the Yamato had a full crew and they had been at their post for at least 6 months WITH training. Generically speaking, the crews were good. Both sides had radar and both early radars frequently broke down, esp when firing salvos...While the us radar was superior, if the japense radar was just basic, it could still give speed and distance...good enough. When your lobbing 2600-3800lb shells, then I dont think the fight is going to be decided because in 5 minutes, the Iowa loosed 8 salvos(it wont maintain 2rpm)vs 4 or 5 for the Japanese. The yamato's armour was of high quality. remember they (and her sister) were the pride of the fleet and were built to high standards...she also could absorb a much more significant ammount of damage than the Iowa... Her shells were up to 50% heavier and had a much greater range. Even if someone thinks that Iowas ROF was so important, Yamato could have gotten off 3-5 slavos before Iowa got into range..and then well within her range, while Iowa-if not hit yet, would still be trying to find the range. Now if in those 3-5(if not more) slavos-and depending on the direction-say a full 9rd salvo, it is guarentee that at least 1 or 2 of the 27-45 18.1" rounds would have it their target. Then, depending on the angle struck, even if not on the conning tower or range finder/radar, both would have probably been knocked out by the concusion of the blasts....remember it was sensitive equiptment.... I think the Yamato could have easily absorbed several hits and still fully functioned-even if the hits were square-remember they were designed to take hits from 16" guns. The Iowa,on the other hand would have been in trouble just after a hit or two. In addition, like the Hood, the 18.1" could have sank her with just 1 high angle hit... I doubt the Iowa could claim the same... When a 18.1 or a 16" shell hits, there is not much damage control can do, for when the second and third, etc hit, then most would be dead anyway....
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doggtag    RE:ww2 Yamato vs Iowa class   10/21/2005 12:21:35 AM
As far as Yamato supposed to be designed to withstand 16" gunfire, I am wondering if they meant horizontal, low-angle impacts...? Most 16" shells weighed about 2700 pounds. IIRC, the USN aircraft that sank Yamato were not equipped with 2700 pound bombs. Anyone care to do the math for me on this one: 2700 pound shells gun-fired at X velocity as compared to 500+ pound AP bombs released at Y velocity (figuring aircraft is diving at Y velocity before braking and peeling away after release), which will have better terminal effects? If the Yamato could be sunk by aircraft carrying ordnance that was marginally comparable to the on-target effects of 16" gunfire, how then can we say that Yamato would've stood up to sustained salvoes from the Iowa? Is it only because the Yamato would've had a decent chance of fighting back against a surface vessel, where it was perfectly armed to respond, as compared to high-angle AA, where it was considerably lacking? (the 25mm AA popular with Japan was woefully inadequate: it didn't have the ROF or ease of mounting maneuverability comparable to 20mm Oerlikons nor the shell weight of 40mm Bofors as used by the USN.)
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Arbalest    RE:ww2 Yamato vs Iowa class   10/21/2005 4:04:14 AM
A Nova/PBS program, titled “Sinking the Supership” I think, examines the history and sinking of the Yamato. The ship was indeed sunk due to airpower. The dive bombers scored 23 hits, the torpedo planes 10. The interesting thing that the program mentions is that all torpedo hits were on the same side of the Yamato, causing enough flooding to roll the ship. This appears to have been the kill mechanism. A Yamato/Iowa gun duel is a tough call. There is a lot of data available on “http ://www.”. The “Naval Weapons” button leads to a lot of calculated armor penetration, velocity-at-range, and angle-of-fall data. As long as the data is from the same formula, it seems to be at least a good indicator of relative performance. The “Naval Technology” button leads to several articles, among them “Longest Gunfire Hit on an Enemy Warship”, by Tony DiGiulian, “What did the USN know about Yamato and when?" by Joseph Czarnecki, and “The Armor Thickness Necessary to Decap an APC Projectile” by Nathan Okun. There is also a link to “Nathan Okun’s Naval Gun/Armor Data Page”, which contains many interesting articles, among them, an article on U.S. Naval Gunnery. It seems that the Iowa class had a de-capping layer of armor, outside of the main belt. This feature does not show up in “Battleships and Battlecruisers . . .” by Sigfried Breyer. According to Okun, decapping a APC round makes a significant difference in armor penetration. Ignoring the Iowa’s decapping armor for the moment, at up to 25,000 yards, both ships would probably have put rounds through each other’s armor everywhere (except for the Yamato’s turret face armor). Including the decapping armor, the Yamato might have had to close another 10,000 yards, maybe not. The Yamato had more powerful guns, but the Iowa’s 2700 AP round closed the gap to 2” more up to maybe 15,000 yards, 1” more thereafter. The Yamato had noticeably more armor everywhere, except that the Iowa had 2 armored decks. Sigfried Breyer’s book has drawings and details. The Yamato was designed to be proof against 16” projectiles (probably the 2200lb variety, not the later 2700lb type) over most ranges, but the entire ship was not proof. Several torpedo hits, all on the same side, rolled the ship. The Iowa’s 5-knot advantage means that the Iowa could control the engagement range, except if the Iowa had to protect something, or in the event of a hit to the propulsion system. The Iowa’s rate of fire (1 rd every 30 sec) is an advantage over the Yamato’s 1 rd every 45 sec., but the hit location would have been more important, as each hit would essentially be a kill, or involve some random damage calculation. 25,000 yards seems to be the maximum effective range for optical sighting, and the hit probability is around 1%. The Iowa’s radar apparently was good for fire control to 35,000 yards. At this range, and beyond, the Iowa could put projectiles through the Yamato’s deck. The Yamato could return the favor through the Iowa’s top AD, but probably not the second. However, the hit probabilities are very low, apparently under 1%. All of this seems to favor the Iowa, but only slightly. However, descriptions of the Bismark’s last action indicates that hits from main guns are very destructive, and that there is a considerable amount of unpredictability in naval gun duels. The South Dakota (9-16” guns) engaged the Kirishima (8-14” guns) and won, but took a lot of damage during the duel. There is a lot of randomness involved.
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Pseudonym    RE:ww2 Yamato vs Iowa class   10/21/2005 10:28:02 AM
"There is a lot of randomness involved." Without listing how the engagement starts, location, etc... there is no way to judge. I mean did the Yamato get caught in open ocean or did it come around an island and start the fight at 10,000 yds. Who caught sight of who first? Who moved to exploit their knowledge best? Who had the tactically superior Captain? Is God Better or is Buddha?
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doggtag    RE:ww2 Yamato vs Iowa class   10/21/2005 12:18:14 PM
Buddha?????? But I always thought the Japanese were predominantly Shintoist.
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bunkerdestroyer    RE:ww2 Yamato vs Iowa class   10/21/2005 3:15:15 PM
The bombs were ap designed to take on ships, not the he used on the home land, in addition, remember howmany bombs she took, and it was not the bombs that sunk was the numerous topedo hits..... and generally speaking, most of the 16" shells would have probably hit at a low angle from )degrees vs the 45-90degrees of a bomb-perfect penetration angle... In addition, you assume 500lb bombs...I think the 500lb were fragmentation to kill the aa gunners and the ones ment to take her out were 1000-2000lbs-more along the lines of 14-15" shells....
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bunkerdestroyer    RE:ww2 Yamato vs Iowa class   10/21/2005 3:20:57 PM
Arbalest: Japense gunners were high quality...probably better than us gunners-and with the exception of radar aided battles, they usually proved it... The Yamato's guns had a range of 41000 yrs-far more than the Iowa's if spotter planes gave the alert, or subs, etc, the Yamato's guns could have easily found the range before they were in range, and 1" of the 'decapping armout' is not going to withstand a 3800/4100lb 18.1" shell at any range-think of it..1" extra.
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bunkerdestroyer    RE:ww2 Yamato vs Iowa class   10/21/2005 3:22:16 PM
Buddha was an enlightened man who believed in God as the supreme being...
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JIMF    RE:ww2 Yamato vs Iowa class   10/21/2005 6:23:29 PM
"Japense gunners were high quality...probably better than us gunners-and with the exception of radar aided battles, they usually proved it..." In "Eagle Against The Sun" the author stated that prior to and at the beginning of the war the U.S. sailors only practiced gunnery during the day. Also, these gunnery competitions tended to be at very long range. The battles off of Guadalcanal in 1942 were at night, and frequently at close range which the Japanese had trained for. Even excluding the U.S. radar advantage I'm not sure the Japanese gunners would have had an advantage in a Yamato vs Iowa class engagement
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Yimmy    RE:ww2 Yamato vs Iowa class   10/21/2005 6:41:42 PM
"Buddha was an enlightened man who believed in God as the supreme being... " Buddhists do not believe in God, although it is a somewhat confusing topic, for their religion sprung from Hinduism, who do have a God.
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