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Subject: ww2 Yamato vs Iowa class
capt soap    9/17/2005 12:55:11 PM
How would this fight turn out? the Iowa's 16 inch guns against the Yamato 18 guns? The iowa had radar,which one would sink the other 1 on 1.
 
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Arbalest       7/12/2009 5:04:01 PM
 
My turn to play again.

Substituting the Yamato for the Kirishima, I think that substantially the same result would have occurred.

I say "substantially" because the Yamato was much larger, and had much larger guns and thicker armor than the Kirishima, and so could have absorbed more damage than the Kirishima.

One question that comes up is, how many hits 14" and larger, did the South Dakota actually suffer? Reports indicate that the South Dakota had a lot of damage, (almost) all of it superficial (meaning outside the main armor). This points to hits 8" and smaller, suggesting that substituting the Yamato for the Kirishima would have made no difference.
 
However, at the range the Washington started firing, the Yamato's belt armor (11 to 17deg angle of descent ?> belt hits) was not proof against the 16" shells, and the Kirishima took at least 9 16" hits. The airstrikes the next day that finished the Kirishima might not have finished the Yamato, but this question is mostly outside the scope of battleship-to-battleship combat.
 
I will speculate that the reports and pictures from such a strike would have very likely changed the armor design of the Montana class, and possibly the Iowa class.
 
 
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Herald12345    Richmond Kelly Turner   7/13/2009 2:59:26 AM

of that long diatribe you neglect to mention, HALSEY WON...Halsey's forces triumphed...ole'Ghormley was worried about keeping Guadalcanal.  He was INEFFECTIVE.  Halsey was EFFECTIVE, if not particularly efficient...and it was Halsey that advanced up the Slot.  In conjunction with Macarthur it was HALSEY who neutralized Rabaul. 


In conjunction with MacArthur it was HALSEY that destroyed the IJN light surface forces and gutted IJN  Naval Air power.  It WAS who made it impossible for the IJN to stop the Tarawa invasion, by tying up and attriting Japanese Carrier Aviation. 

 

It was Halsey, with MacArthur who so damaged IJN Naval Aviation that it NEVER was a real threat after the Solomons/New Guinea Campaign(s).  It was Halsey that set the stage for the Battle of the Philippine Sea, by destroying IJN Naval Aviation.

 

You kind of neglect that portion of the history don't you Herald?  Facts, such nasty difficult things aren't they?

 

Bottom-Line: for the period 1941-43 Halsey was the most successful operation naval commander the USN had...Nimitz was a great CinC, but he commanded NOTHING-he chose PERSONNEL.  Time-after-Time, it was Halsey that CHOSEN to advance the US forces in the Solomons.  Not not McClellan, not a Burnside, a Meade or so....I'd say.  Very Mahanian, you'd think you'd like Halsey, Herald.  He focused on the Japanese FLEET, not the mission objective...get back to us on how a Mahanian guy like Halsey is an idiot, within the bounds of Mahan's focus on Battle to destroy the Enemy Fleet as the prime focus of Naval Operations.  You're almost sounding like Julian Corbett now....

Source

When two first rate navies fight: it is always to the death.

P.S. as you can see from the accounts, there must be a special place reserved in hell for Ralph Waldo Christie, the man who saddled the USN with the Mark 13, 14, and 15 torpedoes.

When two first rate navies fight: it is always to the death.

P.S. as you can see from the accounts, there must be a special place reserved in hell for Ralph Waldo Christie, the man who saddled the USN with the Mark 13, 14, and 15 torpedoes.
 
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Herald12345       7/13/2009 3:49:45 AM



Herald wrote:

Halsey in one month cost the Navy two carriers, two cruisers, seven destroyers SUNK, more than 300 planes, plus again that many ships damaged, Henderson Field shot up by battleships TWICE and the Marines almost overrun because he threw away our carrier task force and killed 5000 sailors who could have been better used Mannstein style pff the backhand.    

I think Henderson was shot up by battleships once....

TWICE. The place was shelled by Kongo and Haruna.


Anyway, tell me why the loss of Wasp was Halsey's fault. 

TORPEDO alley.

Well known Japanese happy hunting grounds: Halsey gets the blame for failing to warn Turner when he received the Magic warnings.
 
Then let's play a different game.  Back to Yamato (remember her?)   Suppose instead of Kirishima, it was Yamato the night that Halsey sent Lee in. For fun, let's say that events unfolded the same way - DD's hammered, South Dakota beat up and Washington forgotten about. What happens if it's Yamato that Washington opens up on at close range? I assume that Yamato would have been able to withstand the initial damage better than Kirishima and she would have been able to punch back. 

Yamato DIES. At those ranges even 26 inches of armor doesn't stop a 16' Mark 8; and this time those shells explode inside the citadel, instead of just pass through. 



What does that close in punch-out look like? It's one of those rare moments where there could have been a true one on one between BB's...Washington vs Yamato at a couple miles distance. 

Gruesome, something like this:
 
Source.    Both ships.

Again, assumes that events would have unfolded the same way, but with the bigger ship in place of the Battlecruiser...(not sure that Yamato had the speed to get down the slot and back before daylight, but that's a different question)

The Yamato turned like a pig in mud. Torpedo planes would have a field day with her, if the Washington didn't kill her first..


Anyone? 

 




 







 


 
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elclip1    Henderson/Yamato   7/13/2009 10:26:36 AM
Herald wrote:
"TWICE. The place was shelled by Kongo and Haruna."

We're  separated by a common language here. Meant that Henderson was bombarded by BB's one time (but by two ships), you meant Two BB's had bombarded the field.. 


Thanks for the info on a close BB encounter. Interesting reading.

Q - with a top speed of about 27 Knots, could Yamato have been deployed to attack Guadalcanal in the "traditional" manner? That is, could she have made speed enough to dash down the slot, make a night attack and be back out of air attack range by daylight?

 


 
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JFKY    Herald   7/13/2009 10:34:22 AM
Henderson was shelled by BATTLESHIPS, only once...it was shot up at least twice, but one drive by was cruisers only, IIRC.
 
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Leech       7/13/2009 10:46:24 AM
Henderson was shelled by battleships and cruisers...and continued operating even after 3 shellings (however, problem was fuel), while US Navy lost heavy cruiser while trying to shell Japanese Munda airport 5 months later.
 
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Leech    Montana armor   7/13/2009 10:52:54 AM
Iowa was designed with inner inclined armor belt, as putting it outside would not allow ship to be in "Panamax" range, and all main US shipyards were on eastern coast. Montana was already outside of capabilities of Panama channel, so she would be given outer main belt.
 
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Leech    Halsey   7/13/2009 10:56:59 AM
Halsey was unable to stay at one place to guard something.
 
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Herald12345       7/13/2009 11:55:46 AM





Herald wrote:

"TWICE. The place was shelled by Kongo and Haruna."




We're  separated by a common language here. Meant that Henderson was bombarded by BB's one time (but by two ships), you meant Two BB's had bombarded the field.. 







Thanks for the info on a close BB encounter. Interesting reading.




Q - with a top speed of about 27 Knots, could Yamato have been deployed to attack Guadalcanal in the "traditional" manner? That is, could she have made speed enough to dash down the slot, make a night attack and be back out of air attack range by daylight?


That is about 1300 kilometers. Assuming  50k/h, that, means a speed run of about 26 hours one way. Since US air combat radius for the Dauntless and the Avenger was about 450-500 kilometers the Yamato could actually cruise two thirds of the distance (850 kilometers) at 30k/h or about 28 hours and do a speed run of 9 hours into and then 9 hours outof of the maximum air-power danger circle. If the Yamato could be slowed down for nine hours daylight exposure to Cactus, as Hiei was, she's doomed.   

Herald
 
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elclip1    Dakota Damage   7/13/2009 4:41:32 PM
Arbalest wrote:
One question that comes up is, how many hits 14" and larger, did the South Dakota actually suffer? Reports indicate that the South Dakota had a lot of damage, (almost) all of it superficial (meaning outside the main armor). This points to hits 8" and smaller, suggesting that substituting the Yamato for the Kirishima would have made no difference.

 

Most of the reference material I have available says that South Dakota took just the one 14" hit from Kirishima. 
(one example)

 

 
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