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Subject: ww2 Yamato vs Iowa class
capt soap    9/17/2005 12:55:11 PM
How would this fight turn out? the Iowa's 16 inch guns against the Yamato 18 guns? The iowa had radar,which one would sink the other 1 on 1.
 
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JFKY    Oh I see Ghormley gets a pass...   7/9/2009 4:18:15 PM
Dood, you're being silly Halsey is bad, but the metnally ILL get a pass...good to see that Herald has a consistent policy for grading command.    Mental illness=pass, but God Help you if you don't measure up to herald standards.  Sorry, that's silly.   BTW that wasn't a "crack" at Ghormley...HE NEVER VISITED GUADALCANAL.  It's the truth...Also the first I ahve heard of Ghormely being  mentally ill, he had a badly absessed tooth...was working too hard, sitting in the heat, got depressed, but never heard anythng about him being bonkers.
 
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elclip1    Glorious, Halsey and Jutland   7/9/2009 5:03:07 PM

(What was the wind direction then? That is important because surface ship tactics against carriers was to get to windward of them and stay  there to leep the carrier from making a turn into the wind to launch aircraft.

Winton's book indicates that the German group stayed to the Windward side. As the author put it: As was said in the days of sail; The Germans "had the weather gauge"

Fitch and Fletcher were raiding, too. What were they? Chopped liver?

Fitch got torpedoed and ran aground too, so no one is perfect.  Actually his contributions to the war after his sea battles were considerable. Fletcher got a rap against him for the "Bug out" at Guadalcanal (fairly or unfairly) and also oddly got labeled after Eastern Solomans as being "Overly cautious", which is odd, because he more or less blindly attacked everything at Coral Sea and Midway.  

Suffice to say that some had longer leashes with King and Nimitz than others.

Example: Scott would have been in command and in radar clear waters to the west of Savo Island; if  somebody competent had delegated 

 

Agreed - Scott should have been in command that night.

Jutland is a WHOLE different ballgame, but yeah, Jellico should have relieved Beaty.    IMHO the best commander that day was Hipper.

 
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Herald12345    Save for Savo Island......    7/9/2009 5:28:46 PM
Name me a subsequent naval disaster you can lay at Ghormley's feet?
 
Cape Esperance and Eastern Solomons were VICTORIES.
 
Santa Cruz was a DEFEAT.
 
First Guadalcanal was a DEFEAT.
 
Tassafaronga was a DEFEAT.
 
The brawls up the ladder were exactly that, BRAWLS.
 
Kula Gulf, Vella LaVella, Honaryu, were nothing if not messes for which Halsey deserves blame.
 
Lee won on his own.
 
Merrill won on his own.
 
Burke won on his own.
 
Ainsworth won on his own.
 
Even the Raid on Rabaul and Bismark Sea was in the hands of other men. (Kenney and Frederick Sherman)

Halsey gets no credit, nothing!
 
Herald
 

 
 



 
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elclip1       7/9/2009 5:57:59 PM


Halsey gets no credit, nothing!

Herald
 
 
I am not sure I understand why Halsey gets the blame for defeats at the hands of men whom he commanded, but no credit for victories at the hands of men whom he commanded.   Seems fairly inconsistent to me. 

 
He sends in Wright at Tassaforga and that defeat is Halsey's doing
He sends Lee in and it's Lee's victory

Hummm 
 

 





 


 











 
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JFKY    Herald   7/9/2009 6:55:06 PM
Kula Gulf, Vella LaVella, Honaryu, were nothing if not messes for which Halsey deserves blame.
EXCEPT, they were all a part of SUCCESFUL Tri-Phibious Campaign that advanced American Forces up the Slot and depleted the Japanese Imperial Navy, it's light forces and it's air forces...so however you may fault the TACTICAL Level, at the operational and strategic level it's all a "win." 
 
And having read Japanese Destroyer Captain, I don't believe the Japanese consider them "victories," so I'm not sure if I'd let you get away with calling them "messes."  Or if they WERE messes, what do you mean, by that?  In no case did the Japanese disrupt the US forces invading Bougainville or the like...if by "messes" you mean they were confused night actions, well here's a clue...IT WAS WAR-AT NIGHT- BY DEFINITION THEY ARE "MESSY."  So please define "messes" and ask yourself if you aren't expecting far too much out of ANY commander to fight a neat night action....Finally it wasn't until the later stages of the Solomons Campaign that US units got to operate as UNITS, Burke's drilling wasn't because Burke was a GREAT Commander, they got to drill because for once they had the time to do so!  Prior to this US Naval Forces had been committed in ad hoc task groups with little chance to train and shake down.  You confuse a lessened crisis situation with a command decision.
 
And Eclip hits it exactly...IF Scott is at Halsey's feet, THEN Lee is also at Halsey's feet.  Can't have it both ways, subordinates lose, Halsey's fault, subordinates win, it's Halsey's credit.
 
Your starting to get a little silly here with Halsey gets nothing...and yet the mentally ill (in your book) Ghormley gets a pass?  What is he some relative of yours or what?
 
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Herald12345       7/10/2009 12:17:19 AM







Halsey gets no credit, nothing!



Herald


 

 


I am not sure I understand why Halsey gets the blame for defeats at the hands of men whom he commanded, but no credit for victories at the hands of men whom he commanded.   Seems fairly inconsistent to me. 




 

He sends in Wright at Tassaforga and that defeat is Halsey's doing

He sends Lee in and it's Lee's victory




Hummm 

 



 













 






 



























CREF earlier in this thread where I said that Lee fought an UNNECESSARY battleship action, because Halsey screwed up First Guadalcanal? Lee was sent in recklessly to retrieve a disaster. Lee retrieved the disaster after losing four destroyers and the South Dakota failed. Lee was an able tactician and yet for all practical purposes he was wiped out. He won because Kondo, the coward, fled . Carleton Wright wasn't too bright. The Port Chicago disaster was another reason he should have been canned besides Tassafaronga.  
 
The commander gets to choose the guys he sends in. How do you like Callaghan and Wright again? Kincaid and Lee were NOT Halsey's choices. They were Nimitz's.  
 
Herald 
 
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Herald12345       7/10/2009 12:37:11 AM

Kula Gulf, Vella LaVella, Honaryu, were nothing if not messes for which Halsey deserves blame.


EXCEPT, they were all a part of SUCCESFUL Tri-Phibious Campaign that advanced American Forces up the Slot and depleted the Japanese Imperial Navy, it's light forces and it's air forces...so however you may fault the TACTICAL Level, at the operational and strategic level it's all a "win." 

 Explain Arleigh Burke. Explain Ainsworth.

And having read Japanese Destroyer Captain, I don't believe the Japanese consider them "victories," so I'm not sure if I'd let you get away with calling them "messes."  Or if they WERE messes, what do you mean, by that?  In no case did the Japanese disrupt the US forces invading Bougainville or the like...if by "messes" you mean they were confused night actions, well here's a clue...IT WAS WAR-AT NIGHT- BY DEFINITION THEY ARE "MESSY."  So please define "messes" and ask yourself if you aren't expecting far too much out of ANY commander to fight a neat night action....Finally it wasn't until the later stages of the Solomons Campaign that US units got to operate as UNITS, Burke's drilling wasn't because Burke was a GREAT Commander, they got to drill because for once they had the time to do so!  Prior to this US Naval Forces had been committed in ad hoc task groups with little chance to train and shake down.  You confuse a lessened crisis situation with a command decision.

 Thanks for pointing out that the incompetent Halsey didn't combat train his units. Why did Burke accomplish it at his unit level exactly when  Halsey racked up this interesting string of defeats again? HELLO?

And Eclip hits it exactly...IF Scott is at Halsey's feet, THEN Lee is also at Halsey's feet.  Can't have it both ways, subordinates lose, Halsey's fault, subordinates win, it's Halsey's credit.

I go deeper than that. I show you how Halsey crippled his subordinates (including Callaghan and Lee) by screwing up staff work bungling communications and generally making a hash by unnecessary command shuffles pre-battle

Your starting to get a little silly here with Halsey gets nothing...and yet the mentally ill (in your book) Ghormley gets a pass?  What is he some relative of yours or what?
 
Ghormley didn't screw up like Halsey immediately did and string together three defeats in a row. After the Savo Island chaos and Fletcher's strange decision to run south (which Ghormley okayed) he at least tried to set up a land based air defense, he threw in more Marines and ran in convoys after the Fletcher "abandonment"  and he didn't fold up like Fredendall at Kasserine or MACARTHUR did at Lingayan Gulf just as concurrent examples.     


Yes, I give Ghormley credit. He didn't lose when it was oh so easy to lose.
 
 
Ghormley  was the McClellan.
 
Herald
 
 
 
 
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elclip1    Halsey reading   7/10/2009 1:33:00 AM
Well, this is lively, isn't it? More tomorrow.

Some interesting reading you've been attaching Herald - though I don't see much overt hammering of the "bull" there.

I must say as an aside, that I found the passage on page 120 of "The first team and the Guadalcanal Campaign" to be amusing.


 In it, the Captain of a Japanese Destroyer is communicating with the XO of the Ryujo asking for better CAP support. Even in the midst of a battle, they were so....POLITE.

Thanks for Sharing

 
 
 
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Herald12345    This is what drove Ghormley nuts.    7/10/2009 3:48:22 AM
 
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Leech       7/10/2009 9:06:13 AM

(Having trouble posting from my MAC - trying the PC)

 

In Winton's "Carrier Glorious", the German action report shows that Marschall held the Battlecruisers on their original heading for a while after spotting the enemy. He did this to allow the ships to raise steam for a high speed run. Once this was done, he turned toward Glorious. Making 26 knots and accelerating eventually to around 29 knots, Scharnhorst began firing at 28,000 yards making the first hit on the third salvo at about 14 miles.




By the time Glorious saw S&G the game was up. With cold boilers and no time to bring them on line, there was no chance to escape. The Carrier was doomed from the moment she was spotted by the German Group.







Halsey. I give him credit for the early actions in the war. His early raids in the South Pacific were good for moral, though of little real impact. The Doolittle raid could have gone better, but it accomplished the goals set for it.  Most accounts of the Guadalcanal action indicate that Halsey was a welcome boost when he relieved Ghormley. His willingness to mix it up and go in harms way was a sharp contrast to Ghormley and Fletcher too. 




If you've ever read Spruance's bio, you'd find that he was aghast at the lack of structure and discipline within Halsey's staff when Spruance took over the fleet before Midway. Halsey was no great thinker, that much is certain. 

His main focus seems to have been to attack the enemy whenever and wherever he found them. In 42, some of that was needed. Of course disaster was always a possibility with that approach. Halsey slipped in and back out of Pearl right after the attack and went looking for the Japanese fleet with Enterprise. Had he found them, he probably would have been destroyed and one of our few carriers lost. It's a good thing that he didn't find them, but he was a fighter.





Most agree that, eventually, the war just got to big and too complex for The bull.





The Bull wasn't responsible enough. He was best when he was "unleashed", free to attack whatever he wants. Halsey was, as someone already put it, Blitzkrieg specialist and popularity icon. Mitcher was responsible and careful naval commander. And Kimball also done it good when he was degraded and put into command of CVN task force (USS Enterprise, if I'm right). However, it should be noted that general MacArthur also comanded both naval and land troops, like Nimitz, and both of them performed well especially in amphibious assualts. It was only in 1944., during or after recapturing Phillippines, that MacArthur took command of all land troops, and Nimitz took command of all naval forces in Pacific theatre of operations.
 
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