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Subject: ww2 Yamato vs Iowa class
capt soap    9/17/2005 12:55:11 PM
How would this fight turn out? the Iowa's 16 inch guns against the Yamato 18 guns? The iowa had radar,which one would sink the other 1 on 1.
 
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Herald12345       6/30/2009 2:29:59 PM

How good was Yamato-class underwater protection? Mushashi took 26 torpedos and 30 bombs, while Yamato took "only" 10 torpedos and 5 bombs. Prince of Wales took 7 torpedoes and 5 bombs, while Repulse took 5 torpedoes (however, after 4 torpedoes it was already obvious that she will sunk). West Virginia was sunk after 6 torpedoes (Oklahoma took 15 torpedoes, but it was unnecessary).

Previously answered. (REREAD) Yamato took only  SIX Mark 13 torpedoes CONFIRMED (as did Musashi) and broke in TWO after it exploded BEFORE IT SANK. How many did  Oklahoma take again and STAY IN ONE PIECE?
 
Herald
 
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Leech       6/30/2009 2:30:23 PM

Which had the longer range gun? 16 or 18 inch? So far there is a favor for the iowa for radar,yamato's armour was thicker, maybe it could get in visual range.
 I think that they had approximately same range. Difference could be for Yamato, but not much.

 
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JFKY    It's not so much range as usable range   6/30/2009 2:59:54 PM



Which had the longer range gun? 16 or 18 inch? So far there is a favor for the Iowa for radar,Yamato's armour was thicker, maybe it could get in visual range.

 I think that they had approximately same range. Difference could be for Yamato, but not much.




As Yamato had to use the optical range finder to measure target deflection, Yamato's USABLE range was ~26-27K yards, approximately 24K metres....because the longest ranged hits scored by a moving vessel on a moving target was about 24.5 K yards.
According to Herald, the Iowa's could open fire and expect hits at 30K yards or more....approximately 27.5 K metres.  The Iowa's 406 mm/L50 rifles PRACTICALLY out-ranged the 460 mm Yamato rifles.
 
Again it's not just ordnance, it's the complete weapon system...and in that respect the Iowas were superior vessels to the Yamato's.
 
Finally, someone mentioned that Yamato was designed to engage MULTIPLE battleships....I don't think so, not as this person suggested, with bow turrets engaging one target and the stern turret engaging another.  That's not reasonable...Yamato had only ONE fire control system, meaning that one set of turrets would be in local control.  And in local control the accuracy and/or range fall off immensely.  Yamato was designed to engage multiple targets, singly, by sinking and surviving several encounters, not by engaging several vessels at once.  In my view....if someone wants to present evidence that Yamato had a series of local fire control systems, and that these systems were as accurate as other navies centralized systems, I'm open to the evidence.
 
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elclip1       7/1/2009 12:15:47 AM
US and Japanese battleships actually met each other TWICE. Two Iowas and the one surviving Yamato missed each other by six hours. It would have been a desperate fight for all involved as the Taffys were low on bombs, Kurita was low on shells, Oldendorf (the only competent admiral present besides Clifton Sprague) was still a couple of hours away as was McCain. Halsey with his litttle rumpass fleet was outnumbered four battleships to two. 


Herald

I think task force 34 would have had for BB's (Washington, Alabama, New Jersey and Iowa) So Halsey's "rumpass fleet" wouldn't have been outnumbered, BB to BB.  Whether Halsey would have managed the battle well is a more than fair question. He certainly would have been there, on board New Jersey (presumably, he wouldn't have jumped to a carrier to chase Ozowa).  Had he been at Samar, Halsey would have been best served by leaving the tactical moves to Lee.
 
Speaking of...I was surprised by your statement about Oldendorf and Sprague being the only competent Admirals present. I get the problem with Halsey, but Lee, Mitscher and "31 knot" Burke were all there. What's the beef with those men?
 


 
 
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elclip1       7/1/2009 12:17:11 AM
"four" of course...not "for"
 
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elclip1       7/1/2009 12:25:37 AM
"four" of course...not "for"
 
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Herald12345    Read and Learn.   7/1/2009 12:48:11 AM


US and Japanese battleships actually met each other TWICE. Two Iowas and the one surviving Yamato missed each other by six hours. It would have been a desperate fight for all involved as the Taffys were low on bombs, Kurita was low on shells, Oldendorf (the only competent admiral present besides Clifton Sprague) was still a couple of hours away as was McCain. Halsey with his litttle rumpass fleet was outnumbered four battleships to two. 






Herald



I think task force 34 would have had for BB's (Washington, Alabama, New Jersey and Iowa) So Halsey's "rumpass fleet" wouldn't have been outnumbered, BB to BB.  Whether Halsey would have managed the battle well is a more than fair question. He certainly would have been there, on board New Jersey (presumably, he wouldn't have jumped to a carrier to chase Ozowa).  Had he been at Samar, Halsey would have been best served by leaving the tactical moves to Lee.

 

Speaking of...I was surprised by your statement about Oldendorf and Sprague being the only competent Admirals present. I get the problem with Halsey, but Lee, Mitscher and "31 knot" Burke were all there. What's the beef with those men?


 





 


Burke was with McCain out of range 470 kilometers to the East.
 
Mistcher, who was as big an idiot as Halsey, was off Cape Engano scattered  peppering Ozawa with bungled air strikes and then trying to move south from Cape Engano. about 800 kilometers away in his usual total state of confusion. Lee was with the other battleships trailing about 150 kilometers behind  Halsey. He was refueling because hus destroyers were out of gas. He was a half a day doing this before he could get on scene..
 
Halsey had a couple of cruisers and battleships with HIM. He planned to pick up a few destroyers from the Taffys and then charge into battle with the TWO Iowas that he had with him.  The resat of hois cruisers and destroyers he left out of gas bobbing around helpless waiting for Lee to gather them up as he moved south. Halsey HAD NO TANKERS.
 
Who does that leave? Oldendorf, who smashed Shima and Nishamira in a textbook gun battle?. Then there is Clifton Sparague who fought the finest surface action of the Second World War..Killing four enemy cruisers and chasing off four battleships with the jeep carriers and  destroyers he had was amazing.
 
Sprague did that with draftees, second raters, and inferior technology, as well as worn out equipment. This is one reason why I am angered that we put such idiots, as Halsey and Mitscher, in command of the professional Navy.

Can you imagine what Lee could have done in Halsey's place? Hell FLETCHER could have done better as a fleet commander.  
 
 

 
 
 
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Herald12345    Read and Learn.   7/1/2009 12:54:57 AM
 

Hyperwar is a good resource. Use it. 
 
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elclip1       7/1/2009 1:11:32 AM
 
Burke was with McCain out of range 470 kilometers to the East.   Mistcher, who was as big an idiot as Halsey, was off Cape Engano scattered  peppering Ozawa with bungled air strikes and then trying to move south from Cape Engano. about 800 kilometers away in his usual total state of confusion. Lee was with the other battleships trailing about 150 kilometers behind  Halsey. He was refueling because hus destroyers were out of gas. He was a half a day doing this before he could get on scene..
Halsey had a couple of cruisers and battleships with HIM. He planned to pick up a few destroyers from the Taffys and then charge into battle with the TWO Iowas that he had with him.  The resat of hois cruisers and destroyers he left out of gas bobbing around helpless waiting for Lee to gather them up as he moved south. Halsey HAD NO TANKERS.
Who does that leave? Oldendorf, who smashed Shima and Nishamira in a textbook gun battle?. Then there is Clifton Sparague who fought the finest surface action of the Second World War..Killing four enemy cruisers and chasing off four battleships with the jeep carriers and  destroyers he had was amazing.
Sprague did that with draftees, second raters, and inferior technology, as well as worn out equipment. This is one reason why I am angered that we put such idiots, as Halsey and Mitscher, in command of the professional Navy.
Can you imagine what Lee could have done in Halsey's place? Hell FLETCHER could have done better as a fleet commander.  



 

 




 

 

Burke was on Mitscher's staff and was with him (Cutler's "Battle of Leyte Gulf" is one source). Regarldess, I see where you were driving with your point. You were talking of Halsey's actions AFTER receipt of the "the world wonders" message.
All and all, the best American Scenerio would  have been a detached TF-34 (as planned) with Lee in command and "The Bull" on a flat top running north to get Ozowa.
 
Back to the original "Yamato vs Iowa" thread. Had it played out this way, I have little doubt that 3 or 4 IJN Battleships would have been sunk that day. Some hits on the USN BB's to be certain, but Lee would have laid the trap as well as Oldendorf had the night before at Surigao.  Kurita would have had to charge through DD's, CA's and aircraft attacks just to run up against a line of four 16" BB's capping his 'T'. 
 
Sorry to say, he wasn't up for battling Sprague and his DE's and DD's as it was. Had he pushed all the way through to Samar under those conditions only to find Lee waiting.....well it would have been a bad day.
 
 

 
 
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Herald12345       7/1/2009 2:35:28 AM

 

Burke was with McCain out of range 470 kilometers to the East.   Mistcher, who was as big an idiot as Halsey, was off Cape Engano scattered  peppering Ozawa with bungled air strikes and then trying to move south from Cape Engano. about 800 kilometers away in his usual total state of confusion. Lee was with the other battleships trailing about 150 kilometers behind  Halsey. He was refueling because hus destroyers were out of gas. He was a half a day doing this before he could get on scene..


Halsey had a couple of cruisers and battleships with HIM. He planned to pick up a few destroyers from the Taffys and then charge into battle with the TWO Iowas that he had with him.  The resat of hois cruisers and destroyers he left out of gas bobbing around helpless waiting for Lee to gather them up as he moved south. Halsey HAD NO TANKERS.


Who does that leave? Oldendorf, who smashed Shima and Nishamira in a textbook gun battle?. Then there is Clifton Sparague who fought the finest surface action of the Second World War..Killing four enemy cruisers and chasing off four battleships with the jeep carriers and  destroyers he had was amazing.


Sprague did that with draftees, second raters, and inferior technology, as well as worn out equipment. This is one reason why I am angered that we put such idiots, as Halsey and Mitscher, in command of the professional Navy.


Can you imagine what Lee could have done in Halsey's place? Hell FLETCHER could have done better as a fleet commander.  









 



 










 



 




Burke was on Mitscher's staff and was with him (Cutler's "Battle of Leyte Gulf" is one source). Regarldess, I see where you were driving with your point. You were talking of Halsey's actions AFTER receipt of the "the world wonders" message.


All and all, the best American Scenerio would  have been a detached TF-34 (as planned) with Lee in command and "The Bull" on a flat top running north to get Ozowa.

 

Back to the original "Yamato vs Iowa" thread. Had it played out this way, I have little doubt that 3 or 4 IJN Battleships would have been sunk that day. Some hits on the USN BB's to be certain, but Lee would have laid the trap as well as Oldendorf had the night before at Surigao.  Kurita would have had to charge through DD's, CA's and aircraft attacks just to run up against a line of four 16" BB's capping his 'T'. 

 

Sorry to say, he wasn't up for battling Sprague and his DE's and DD's as it was. Had he pushed all the way through to Samar under those conditions only to find Lee waiting.....well it would have been a bad day.

 

 



 

Burke was with Mitscher at the time; my mistake. I thought he was with McCain and notified HIM. I thought it was Commander James Flatley who gave Mitscher the bad news. The odds were against us at Samar. I'm not confident about such a fight unless McCain is on hand to take over after Halsey is relieved. Halsey should have been relieved after the Doolittle Raid where he failed to maintain TF secirity and blundered into a Japanerse picket line  or maybe after the mess he made of Guadalcanal..
 
Herald
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