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Subject: Cruiser vs Cruiser - Kirov Class vs Ticonderoga
tianjinrob    8/5/2005 2:10:49 PM
Hi guys, (if this has been done to death, please direct me to the link so I can get caught up) Two great ships, two very different roles. Weapons carried are also extremely different, some better, some worse. Which would you rather be on in a confrontation? To make this REALLY fair, no Oscars or Seawolf/LA around... no carrier(s) from either side in the region to help in air defense. They are ALLLLL alone... who wins? If that's too easy, let's pit the Russian black sea fleet (overwhelming firepower, built to strike quickly) against ONE US carrier battle group... who are you riding with?
 
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radoo    RE: - OVER the Horizon   2/22/2006 6:11:44 AM
i was wondering... how its possible to engage ships over the horizon? +100km The missiles should be guided by ship carried radars, which are at sea level. I know that modern navies have airborne radars, but witch is the maximum area that is coverd by a radar on a ship ???
 
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fitz    RE:Cruiser vs Cruiser - Kirov Class vs Ticonderoga   2/22/2006 8:24:45 AM
For OTH shots target data will usually be provided by off-board sensors - helicopters, maritime patrol aircraft, satelites, other ships or submarines, etc.
 
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Herc the Merc    How about Chinese & Indian boats???   2/22/2006 1:49:04 PM
Russian cruisers are not as advanced as Chinese & Indian ones....Consider the Chinese Sovernmay??(spelling) class & the new Indian Talwar class against US fleets..
 
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displacedjim    RE:How about Chinese & Indian boats???   2/22/2006 1:57:21 PM
I hope you're actually trying to make a subtle point here, as both the ships you mention are Russian-designed-and-built and sold to China and India. Displacedjim
 
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Herc the Merc    RE:How about Chinese & Indian boats???   2/22/2006 2:43:39 PM
Yes Displaced but they are more equipped than new Russian frigates. The Russian Navy can't spend that much, plus Indians add Israeli (Barak), Fraench & UK & Italian systems too. Pretty devilish & the Chinese probably have better range missiles than Indians.
 
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Galrahn    RE:How about Chinese & Indian boats???   2/22/2006 2:59:57 PM
Herc, First, the Chinese and Indian's don't have cruisers, so they wouldn't be superior to the Russian Cruisers. China's best subsonic missile is a UGM/RGM-109B varient clone with inferior terminal guidence. I guess that is good, if your living in 1986. I know India is part of the Brahmos missile project, which on paper would give India an anti-ship missile superior to any country in the world, but since it is developed in Russia, uhm, your point doesn't make sense. And it is supposedly inferior to the Klub which is being deployed on the Lava. I think you are wrong, India and China may have a more serviable Surface Fleet, but Russia is still far and away more technologically superior than both countries, your comparing export Russian equiptment to export Western, export Western is better, but mainline Russian is better than that.
 
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radoo    RE:How about Chinese & Indian boats???   2/23/2006 3:33:51 AM
SOVREMENNY CLASS (TYPE 956) DESTROYER, these are built in Russia, China and India buy these kind of ships and they are tring to develop their own ships based on russian technology. India also has British and US tech (see Viraat carrier and Harriers) and wepons - like harpoon missiles -
 
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Azov    Some observations...   10/8/2011 12:33:58 AM
A few years to late on this one, but I will offer some observations based on my experience in strategic affairs.
 
First, a Kirov and a Ticonderoga in a head to head fight is lopsided in favor of the Kirov. The Soviet Admiralty designed the Kirov class for one main goal: Engaging entire U.S. carrier battle groups with a reasonable belief a skilled commander could possibly win. Now, this feat cannot be directly accomplished alone as the Kirov would rely on support elements such as a fast attack or a diesel sub, and suppressing firepower from other vessels. But the bulk of her armaments is geared toward defeating a carrier air wing, her carrier, and her escorts. 
 
Second, a Ticonderoga is a air defense cruiser. Granted, AEGIS gives her an edge with land attack and anti-ship options, her weapons are problematic when dealing with Russian air defenses. Tactical Tomahawks - as some have asked - can indeed hit ships. But Tomahawks are dreadfully slow and very easy targets for Russia close in weapon systems and point defense SAM systems - to which the Kirov boasts many of. Economically speaking, wasting millions per-shot on a Tomahawk attack on a Kirov is not sound tactics. Harpoons and the Ticonderoga's primary deck gun would be the offensive choice, and even then problems remain. Harpoons are fairly slow, and, depending on the engagement range, fairly easy to knock down.  The Kirov's incredibly dense AAW systems make a Harpoon strike unlikely.
 
Third, a Kirov boasts 20 Granit SS-N-19 Shipwreck missiles. These missiles travel anywhere from Mach 1.5 up to Mach 2.5, which makes them almost as deadly as the Moskit (Sunburn/SS-N-22). Shipwreck's are ideally fired in clusters of 6-8, and fly incredibly low to the deck, with one missile staying up higher to triangulate data to the corresponding missiles. At a hypothetical engagement range of 100 kilometers (assuming the EW atmosphere is light, but in a heavy jamming enviroment, this would be going on much closer, and to the Tico's disadvantage), the Ticonderoga crew would have only 35-40 seconds to find, attack, and defeat the missiles. At a longer range - say if the Kirov commander simply avoided the Tico's Harpoon range - the Tico would then gain a longer response time to incoming Shipwreck's, but the situation remains tactically challenging to them.
 
Fourth, a Kirov also fields a massive array of torpedo tubes, which could be used in closer-in engagements with a Tico, thus further complicating the Ticonderoga's response to the threat. The Ticonderoga also has the ability to launch Torpedo's and could respond in the same way, however, USN naval tactics does not normally see its surface ships engaging in torpedo strikes against enemy surface combatants. They leave that up to the fast attacks to accomplish. 
 
In summation, a Ticonderoga is meant as a fleet escort, and is not geared toward engaging a ship like the Kirov in one-on-one combat. The end result is the Ticonderoga would be sunk, and probably quickly. While the United States Navy remains one of the most capable, it is not immune from massive threats such as the Kirov and other Russian innovations. 
 
 
 
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