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Subject: How will US navy protect against hi-speed missiles like Sunburn
reefdiver    2/16/2005 6:23:46 PM
The 3M-82 Moskit "Sunburn" does mach 2.1 and has a complex flight pattern. I assume there are other similar class anti-ship missiles with even faster ones on the way. Can the US Navy really defend against such fast and low flying missiles - and how (other than stay out of range)?
 
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The Lizard King    gf0012-aust    5/31/2005 7:12:38 PM
In your opinion, what is the biggest threat to a Nimitz(s) in the Pacific?
 
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The Lizard King    gf0012-aust 2   5/31/2005 7:13:51 PM
"This is separate to any phoney war with the US." What did you mean by this statement?
 
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doggtag    RE:How will US navy protect against hi-speed missiles like Sunburn   5/31/2005 9:35:24 PM
One solution to countering the threat is to develop a counter weapon, and the USN (ONR) has recently announced its intent to fly a prototype Mach 3+ platform called RATTLRS, Revolutionary Approach To Time-critical Long Range Strike. They are hoping (pending sufficient funding) to fly a prototype by 2007-2008, with a production line (Lockheed Martin was chosen over Boeing's design) by 2012. The envisaged system is currently expected to reach a range between 300-400nm, carrying a 500 pound payload in a platform just under 2000 pounds. One concept photo revealed was a pair carried underwing on a JSF, with the round looking vaguely similar to a D-21 drone. The proposed powerplant, the Allison YJ102R, is expected to create the fastest turbine-engined combat platform ever built (leveraging technology off the SR-71, whose accomplishments the ONR hopes to eclipse with the RATTLRS platform.) It is also under consideration that the technology could be adapted into a larger, longer-ranged platform capable of deployment from submarines. The potential of such a weapon is obvious: with its high speed and rapid close-on-target, it will be very difficult for air defense systems to effectively intercept this system. Looks like America might finally get the edge back in this category as well.
 
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ShinyTop    RE:gf0012-aust 2   5/31/2005 9:35:53 PM
We have seen many posts in this thread regarding the different layers of detection and protection available to the fleet. But long before then we have satellites using all kinds of sensors, electronic sniffers, and even UAV's watching all of the assets of any potential enemy. Surprise will not be impossible but highly unlikely. Without sheer surprise we begin warnings about aggressive behavior and are ready to launch almost before the enemy. The aircraft of the battle group being attritting the missiles beyond the range of the sensors of the battle group. The actual ships know where the attack is coming from and begin making it more difficult before the first launch. We have also seen posts commenting that the potential enemy is not stupid and will not adhere to the expected forms of attack. I think the point should be considered that our forces are not stupid either and have not announced all capabilities.
 
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The Lizard King    RE:Commonsense and causal observations - gf0012-aust   8/19/2005 8:52:17 AM
""You can try to jam them, however, given the difficulty the US is experiencing in dealing with RPGs, well you can draw your own conclusions.... " that's not even remotely close to create an "extrapolation model". In fact it'c completely fallacious." ""At approximately 8:44 am local time (0544 GMT), a suspected mortar rocket flew over the USS Ashland's bow and impacted in a warehouse on the pier in the vicinity of the Ashland and USS Kearsarge," it said." http://www.spacewar.com/2005/050819101736.2rr0vivw.html
 
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gf0012-aust    RE:Commonsense and causal observations - gf0012-aust - TLK   8/19/2005 9:53:58 AM
and I rest my case. you want to compare an inert projectile that can't be jammed and has limited utility in a conflict? the ROE's for USN vessels since the Cole misadventure are quite explicit. IF you are going to have a vessel tied up and the area isn't secured, the thats a failure of process by whoever is detailed for security around that area - that includes identifying likely latent threats. The current ROE's would be quite clear about where that ship should be sitting if it was moving into a bay/harbour/port area that wasn't benign. In fact, an environment that was contested would see that ship sitting way off out into the harbour with lots of people sitting armed and ready to punch holes in any boat cruising too close. (they actually sit outside the harbour area outside the range of RPG's) It's also not your atypical contingency. I can talk about launching a ballistic missile to pulverise a minefield - just because its do-able doesn't mean that its a new insert in the SOPs for the field manual.
 
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EW3    RE:How will US navy protect against hi-speed missiles like Sunburn   8/19/2005 1:32:28 PM
I forsee the shortening of the career of the CinC of the 5th Fleet. The Gulf of Aqaba is no place to put USN ships unless we are at war and we go in guns blazing and with air support. When will these brass hats realize that there are a few people in the middle east who just don't like us.
 
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YelliChink    How effective is RAM?   8/21/2005 12:35:18 AM
How effective is SPQ-9B/SLQ-32(V2) and RAM combined system against anti-ship weapons like Sunburn?
 
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EW3    RE:How effective is RAM?   8/21/2005 12:53:29 AM
Hard to estimate the electronic countermeasures, they are tightly held. There are many modes involved to stop a missile, Nulka and a helo to draw it off. But the Sunburn has a major problem. It's speed makes it an excellent IR target. Mach 2.5 at 60 feet will make it very hot. The RIM-116 is a perfect weapon to hit a hot target. Also the CIWS 20MM has IR/Optical/Radar detection. The other problem for the Sunburn is that it has limited range. Getting within 60NM of a US CBG or even a single AB will be tough. The shooter will get shot long before he can shoot.
 
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Weasel    RE:How will US navy protect against hi-speed missiles like Sunburn   9/13/2005 11:12:06 PM
Aegis is a good situation awareness suite, but the bottom line is Aegis is not infallable. I have met a few higher ups that scoff at the Indian, Russian and Chinese threats to Aegis, and it is quite disturbing. That sort of complacent attitude is a good way to get yourself killed. We're talking about a good ol' western shoot out here and you are never the fastest gun in the West. there is always someone (or thing in this case)that is better. If that analogy does not fly then just remember the Titanic. No ship is unsinkable and Aegis sits squarely in that seat along with every other defensive system. The supersonic cruise missile is set upon a sound logical principle and it is up to us (the defender)to ensure that we remain sharp enough that it doesn't succeed in its intent. We have the tools but in war , yes I would expect the supersonic cruise missile to achieve some successes as a matter of course. It would be, as I alluded to before, foolish to not expect that.
 
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