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Subject: Raising the Graf Spee.....
PuckaMan    2/26/2004 6:31:49 PM
They're raising the Graf Spee from its 64 year resting place at the bottom of the of the River Plate in Uruguay: That'd be great to have a look at. Even better if they could raise the Bismarck or Mushashi..... but then again, a battle cruiser is a bit smaller and lighter than a Battleship.........
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shawn    RE:Raising the Graf Spee.....   2/27/2004 1:43:49 AM
The Graff Spree lies in quite shallow water, making her salvage or raising quite easy, say in comparison to the raising of the Kursk. For the Bismark which sits under about a mile of water, and the Mushai and Yamato, you'd need someone crazy enough to ressurect the Jennifer Project at about quadruple the capacity of the Glomarr Explorer. The bill would easily come into the billions. IIRC, the Graff Spree is also not a war grave, while the vast majority of other sunken warships are.
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PuckaMan    RE:Raising the Graf Spee.....   2/27/2004 2:12:36 AM
Yeah, I know Shawn. BUt as a Battleship enthusiast it'd be cool. The respect of the dead though, is paramount.
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Spent Case    RE:Raising the Graf Spee.....   2/27/2004 6:12:40 AM
Actually, it was scuttled there after the Germans' time in port in Uruguay had expired, so it shouldn't be a grave site. If I recall correctly, the dead from the previous battle with British cruisers were buried ashore. If they're bring her up, I'd imagine it would be in pieces. I would think a shallow salt water wreck like that would have rotted away quite a bit. SC-
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Worcester    RE:Raising the Graf Spee.....   2/27/2004 2:27:46 PM
The artcile wrongly states the Brits put pressure on the Uruguayan govt. to force the Graf to sea; in fact, international law allows a combatant to enter a neutral port for naval repairs (not rearmament) but it must leave with 48 hours or be interned for the duration. The Brits leaked the rumor that a large naval force was heading to reinforce Ajax, Achilles and Exeter (there was no force) in the hope that the Graf would stay in harbor and be interned. She was scuttled quite unnecessarily - one of the better intelligence ops of the war! Scratch one battleship! Note that the investors are German and Argentinian - the rise and temporary set back of the Third Reich!
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Alistair C    You mean scratch one...   2/27/2004 9:08:15 PM
PanzerSchliffe or Heavy Cruiser as she was relassified. The term Pocket Battleship was coined by the British Press and sought of stuck from there. She was a heavily armed cruiser with moderate armour protetion, thats all. Still, a genius design that also has its fair share of flaws. Alistair Australia
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Alistair C    battle cruiser is a bit smaller and lighter than a Battleship........    2/27/2004 11:51:25 PM
If the Admiral Graf Spee was a battlecruiser! The Musashi/Yamato and especially Bismark wrecks require a whole different ball game in regards to logistics and equipment needed. Be nice though to see the massive 18.1" triple turrets bought up though and preserved on display. Yeah.
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shawn    RE:battle cruiser is a bit smaller and lighter than a Battleship........    3/1/2004 10:02:51 AM
No, the Graff Spree was too small to be a battlecruiser. By definition, a battlecruiser is a battleship sized warship with a battleship's guns and a cruiser's armour. The Graff Spree's displacement was 'only' 11,700 tons, when compared to battlecruisers, which were from twice to three times that weight. The Deutschland class were more like a WW1pre-dreadnaught or armoured cruiser, optimised for commerce raiding, and was just over the Washington treaty limits for cruisers. The Graff Spree could have out run any ship bigger than itself, and outgun any other heavy cruiser in a one-on-one fight. Obviously, the three on one fight at River Plate was to her disadvantage, especially since she only had two turrets to take on three targets.
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Marcus    RE:battle cruiser is a bit smaller and lighter than a Battleship........    3/1/2004 11:09:29 AM
The treaty of versaill limited the size of german armored ships to 10.000 tons. The size of the Graf Spee was not limited by the washington limitation for cruiser. the Graf Spee had six 28 cm guns, the washington treaty limited the gun size for cruisers to 20,3 cm and 10 000 tons.
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Alistair C    Quoting from Puckaman... Not me.   3/1/2004 10:34:08 PM
I know what a BC is, the definition of a BC and that the AGS wasnt a BC. I was just quoting from Puckaman. his terminology was incorrect. Geez, talk about miscommunication. ;-) Alistair Australia
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shawn    RE:battle cruiser is a bit smaller and lighter than a Battleship........    3/1/2004 10:37:19 PM
My references didn't mention the calibre restrictions, although the weight issue was mentioned, in that the Germans tried to build this class to the 10,000 ton limit, but were unable to. For example, they went for only six guns in two turrets, even though the guns were the heaviest calibre (11-inch) ever carried by a cruiser type ship. This was at a time when most heavy cruisers were carrying 8 8-inch guns. How do you accurately guage a ship's displacement in the 1930s anyway?
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