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Subject: French and British Navys in 2017
usajoe    8/20/2007 4:51:10 AM
Right now the british have a small edge as the top navy in europe, but 10 years from now the French second aircraft carrier to complement the nuclear Charles de Gaulle, Horizon Destroyers,Fremm multipurpose frigates,and the 1st Barracuda ssn will come into service along with the Rafales, and E-2C Hawkeyes. the British will have their 2 new Queen Elizabeth class carrieres,Type-45 Destroyers,Astute Class ssn, and the F-35 replacing the Harriers. So on paper bolth will have simmler capabilities, and size, the same as now but with more Global projection power,and the difference then as is now will be British naval tactics and training which i think is just a tad bit better, and that is what I think is going to keep them the number 1 navy in europe.
 
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Herald1234       8/28/2007 12:25:37 AM

Some remarks:
 
We'll see if you have a case.

Forbin is in trial and could be available for a major operations like Falkland even it would not be yet perfect
 
Not integrated and battleworthy until 2009, you HOPE.

BTW tody Cdg is not available until end of 2008.
 
Then you've no chance at all.

If it is in 2009 we have to Horizon destroyers and 29 Rafale M (today 18) and 4 E2C (we have currently 3 and not 2)
 
It is NOW.  FS. You always promise future capability or try to assume conditions not available NOW. Sorry,  this is a come as you are war with no mythology at all.

If we assume a similar scenario than British, then Ascension should be in scenario as a base.However French have Guyana and direct flight distance is the same to Port Stanley than Ascension (however real distance would be longuer if Brazil likely refuse french flights above its territory).
 
Ascension is not yours. You don't get to invent conditions and mythical capabilities to make the impossible barely possible. Britain as a neutral under IL cannot allowy ou to use her territory to make war. 

The bombing by Vulcan was unefficient but from Ascension island (6300 km) , Rafale with Apache antirunway or Scalp plus several air refuel from KC135 can reach Falkland
 
The Vulcans hit and destroyed what they had to destroy. You don't have the bunkerage or the use of Ascension. If you use Rafales you will use them from FRANCE. You also don't have the total tanker support to make the short ranged Rafale work. Neither would I trust the Rafale to roundtrip a bombing mission that will last 12.8 hours by Ascension [neutral territory] which you don't get to use or Guyana which you can't use because the Brazilians will shut you down and which would would be a 20.6 hour roundtrip if you tried it.   

Amethyste SSN class conduct exercises on a routine basis, in Indian Ocean as well in Atlantic or sometime Pacific.Far to be coastal subs!

Coastal work is what the record indicates. Take it up with your naval ministry, not with me.

Amphibious: we have 4 actives amphibious ship and 4 reserve including Jeanne d'arc and Orage class (in reserve)
You should remember that you use what your logistics can handle. You don't have the at sea logistics at that range with no friendly bases nearby to handle more than I factored for thism case study.  
Much more capacity on helos compare to British in Falklands.
All alone in the Tonnere, yes I know this, but I'm not impressed by it at all.. Helos can only help in the land and ASW battle . Your big headache is the air battle and here France is in TROUBLE.

Plus like British, ro-ro and ferries which can receive SATCP protection.

SATCP as a last ditch defense is a joke against multi-vector attacks even by SKYHAWKS. RAM is better but even it has trouble.  

Now on air defense:

Threat is low altitude threat so maximum range of missile above horizon is almost irrelevant (check number of success of T42 in Falkland!)
 
The horizon threat line is the threat I addressed, or can't you read? CREF my remarks concerning CROTALE your principal combat tested and working  SAM and why its DATE cycle is inadequate..

We have 3 Air defense destroyers with 3D radar, ASTER 15 self protection of Cdg,  plus Crotale and SATCP (Mistral)  and 100 mm (antiair and efficient vs sea skimmers missiles) or 30 mm are still good defens
 
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5thGuards       8/28/2007 3:27:14 AM
No you have to be joking  to think they cant, first I did not say the world
I said the next 9 combained, there you go again puting words in my mouth,
the US has more ACC carriers then the next 9 combained way more, like
over 1,000 fighters, bombers awacs and helicopters on our carriers than
the 150+ fighters, bombers, helecopters and 2 awacs on those little jokes
of ACC that the Europeans have if you want to count those as ACC than
the US has 22 ACC, counting the 11 AAS that we have, so on ACC they
are not in the same league. We got 22 Crusiers they got 4, we got 51 of the
most advanced Destroyers, and yes all of them combained do have more
Dest and Frg, but most of those are the type 42 which is a AD Dest. and
those not come closeto the  US Arleigh Burke, or the mostley out dated
French 1 class FRG, or the older Japanese DES. In SSN its a joke
with our 55 SSN's not only do we out number them almost 2 to 1 but 
but also out class most of them in training and equipment, exept the
Brits but they only have 9 SSN's and the French who have 6 and
the french 6 SSN's are also inferior to the Americans, the 9 Akulas
are as good if not better than the british SSN's but the training is not so good.
All that does not matter we still out number them and outclass them.
Plus we got more LPD's and LSD's than the rest, more bases around the
world than the them and yes more Power Projection than the next 9 combained
and that is a Fact I dont care what you say and if you dont agree with that than you
dont no jack about the Navy.


You are a dillusional freak obviusly blinded by propaganda if you think that USN can take on all the navy's you mentioned.
They could not even beat Russian navy if they wanted to , yet alone all of them combined..
What the hell do you think the navy's would go in open sea and fight them? Are you really that shallow?
They would fight to defend the shore , UNDER THEIR AIRPOWER , UNDER THEIR SHORE BATTERY SUPPORT , and no matter if USN is far most powerfull navy in terms of capability and projection ( Which is true ) they can hardly win when attacking and the defender having advantage in air cover and support from shore battery's..
Yes under US airpower or close to US they would win , on open sea they have no rival 1 vs  1 , but they can not win when faced in a position when defender has aircover and shore battery support.


With that beeing said , yes I agree under open sea or under US air cover none of those Navy's stand a chance , but ALL of them combined would beat USN badly on open sea..
Besides most of the navy's get same training as USN does , their sailors are not exactly the best in the world , British sailors are better trained and most europe navy's are very similar quantity of training.

If you combine all the ships from those Navy's you mentioned , you get:

USN
DESTROYER- 50
CRUISER- 22
FRIGATE- 30
SUBMARINES- 72
AIRCRAFT CARRIERS- 11


The others

DESTROYER- 125
CRUISER- 15 ( Japanese DDG's are very similar to cruisers )
FRIGATE- 147
SUBMARINES- 203
AIRCRAFT CARRIERS- 7


Suprize suprize? The mighty USN is outnumbered in almost every aspect..

With that beeing said id like to point out a few things.
Oliver Hazard Perry and Alreigh Burke are pretty good and modern , but they lack any
true anti ship capability , they are pretty good in air corver and ASW , but not as good in anti ship capability , they are mostly for escort of CVN's.

USN vs all those navy's would lose badly on open sea , but not under their aircover near US shore..

And don't think US CVN's could do much , they would be cut off , they would be torpedoed by subs , and it aint anything they could do because the sub fleet is not a match for the combined fleet's.




 
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5thGuards       8/28/2007 3:31:12 AM
Btw 1 more thing , don't think I dont like USN , I do , I like american tehnology , and ships , CVN's , but im just beeing realistic and giving my point of view , USN is far more powerfull and has a amazing power projection but in those scenarios I mentioned they would not win .
 
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Herald1234    True power lies not in the foolish attempts to compare ships   8/28/2007 4:57:17 AM

Btw 1 more thing , don't think I dont like USN , I do , I like american tehnology , and ships , CVN's , but im just beeing realistic and giving my point of view , USN is far more powerfull and has a amazing power projection but in those scenarios I mentioned they would not win .


They could not even beat Russian navy if they wanted to , yet alone all of them combined..
What the hell do you think the navy's would go in open sea and fight them? Are you really that shallow?
They would fight to defend the shore , UNDER THEIR AIRPOWER , UNDER THEIR SHORE BATTERY SUPPORT , and no matter if USN is far most powerfull navy in terms of capability and projection ( Which is true ) they can hardly win when attacking and the defender having advantage in air cover and support from shore battery's..
 
Ignorance is no excuse. If you don't know write "I don't know".
 
You need to seriously reconsider what you wrote 5th Giuards. This is not the confidence shaken USN that John Walker betrayed into Gorshkov's hands. Those days are DONE. This is the USN that is geared, armed, trained equipped  and prepared to destroy Human civilizations spanning continents when ordered . Read that again.
 
And be very frightened.
 
Herald
 
 


 
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5thGuards       8/28/2007 5:37:25 AM
Ignorance is no excuse. If you don't know write "I don't know".
 
You need to seriously reconsider what you wrote 5th Giuards. This is not the confidence shaken USN that John Walker betrayed into Gorshkov's hands. Those days are DONE. This is the USN that is geared, armed, trained equipped  and prepared to destroy Human civilizations spanning continents when ordered . Read that again.
 
And be very frightened.
 
Herald





I know well of USN capability , as I already stated its force projection is undisputed , but you are in serius error if you claim that it can beat united navy's of : UK , France , Russia , China , India , Japan , Germany , Italy , Spain , South Korea.
And I stay by what I claim , the USN can beat any navy in open sea , but the combined navy's are too much for it to handle..
Also I did not claim the Russian navy can beat USN on open sea , it does not have the capability , not even CLOSE.
But so does USN lack capability to beat them in the Barents sea close to Russia , Russian navy has a amazing defencive capability and doctrine , aswell as it would have support from shore battery's , airforce , bombers..

 
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Herald1234       8/28/2007 5:52:09 AM
Look fanboy.
 
Russia can't even put a flotilla of ten ships together. The entire Russian Navy surface fleet cannot face a single US carrier task force and survive. 
 
Neither can France
 
Neither can Japan.
 
Britain just barely might be able to pull it off. That is one US carrier task force.
 
If you think for one minute that the USN cannot destroy the combined surface navies of the Earth in detail IN THEIR PORTS OR AT SEA, in spite of their land based defenses, then you have some seriously fouled up conceptions.
 
The submarine war would take far longer and with the British, Dutch, Australians, Germans, Italians, Japanese, French, and even the Russians in the game. It would be grim, but the result would be the same. 
 
We can build fast to make up for our losses. The rest of you can't. Once your submarine elite crews are gone what do you do at sea? DIE.
 
That is the naval reality. 
 
Herald 
 
  
 
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Lawman       8/28/2007 7:26:23 AM
Herald:
 
In referring to Ascension, I actually disagree that the French should be denied its use, since International Law doesn't actually dictate that Britain couldn't allow the French to use it. It would be right for the British to allow them to use it - otherwise the US would have real difficulty doing a lot of its work in the Mid East and Horn of Africa, since it relies on a British island (Diego) for Afghanistan and to a lesser extent Iraq, and a French island (Djibouti) for Horn of Africa ops. Since Ascension is a British island (technically its Portuguese, life leased to the Brits, and short term lent to the US... ), it would be only fair to allow the French use of it, since the French actually helped Britain a little during the real Falklands war. As for FS mentioning Guyana, this too is true, and would be useable, even if it meant skirting around Brazilian territory - the Brazilians couldn't prevent the French flying past, as long as they stay 12nm out.
 
Even without Ascension, I do believe that the ATL3s would be able to reach the Falklands, to fire their Exocets. The tanker support is actually pretty good - 15 KC-135s is a heck of a lot actually, considering that the UK had to rely on a handful of old Victor bombers used as tankers... The French could easily despatch eight ATL3s, and support them all the way out and back, even if it is only to put in a tiny number of Apache or Scalps. They may not have huge numbers of Apache or Scalp, but certainly enough to do a lot of damage - runway denial is much better nowadays!
 
Also, the French could stage tankers out of one of their African territories, and they have a fair number of C-160 Transalls capable of refuelling the ATL3s as well, for their return leg if necessary.
 
As for my comment about Exocet with a wing kit, such as Diamondback or Longshot (not sure about what Strongback is, sounds like a British hard cider! ), I was really thinking more in terms of a pre-designed one, which I had a feeling the French had prototyped already. I may well be wrong on this, but I suspect the French could field something pretty quickly, since they've got a pretty good R&D set up, and one of the better defence aerospace sectors...
 
Either way, the French could at least launch a few Apache weapons dispensers and Scalp missiles when they need to! There are also projects to drop Scalp out of the back of transports, which have been modelled (there is already a Taurus mod on sale for this very purpose from what I remember). This would give them the possibility of dropping some more Scalps out of the back of a C-130 or similar. Okay, its not ready yet, but as the Brits did in '82, as long as the modifications aren't too massive, it can all be done very very quickly!
 
As for the Russians, I am not so sure I agree in terms of weapons - they do has the Kh-55, but I wouldn't be so sure about how many conventional missiles they actually have... The Klub missile, as far as I know, hasn't yet been tested for air launch, it remains a proposal, though one which the Indians seem pretty keen on, but has yet to be checked out. They may well have the ability to launch some Kh35 Uran missiles from their Bears, but again, I am not so sure that the Russian Tu-142s are checked out for this yet, I think it was only tested on a couple for use by the Indians.
 
With a two, three, or maybe four Scalp/Apache missiles, they could certainly ruin the Argentine's days, and put Stanley and Mount Pleasant airfields well beyond easy repair. This would obviously be best done just as the Rafales and Etendards enter the theatre of operations - ground the Argentine fighters on the islands, then put a bunker buster through the runway (putting it out of service for the duration of the conflict). Pick of whatever fighters the Argentines have sitting on the airfields as well, so they would have to fly in others to use the base after repairs...
 
I have to question whether it is really fair to compare the French and Russian abilities by substituting leadership and manning for the Russian side. As they say, you go to war with what you've got! (There's a more unintelligible version of that saying by Rumsfeld, but I wont bother, it was gibberish! )
 
As FS said, and as I originally said, the French don't have two Hawkeyes, they have three already, not two. I am pretty sure there's also a fourth one being delivered ex-US Navy (it had been in a minor accident, and the US Navy was h
 
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usajoe    5thguards   8/28/2007 7:56:53 AM
With that beeing said , yes I agree under open sea or under US air cover none of those Navy's stand a chance , but ALL of them combined would beat USN badly on open sea..
Besides most of the navy's get same training as USN does , their sailors are not exactly the best in the world , British sailors are better trained and most europe navy's are very similar quantity of training.

If you combine all the ships from those Navy's you mentioned , you get:

USN
DESTROYER- 50
CRUISER- 22
FRIGATE- 30
SUBMARINES- 72
AIRCRAFT CARRIERS- 11


The others

DESTROYER- 125
CRUISER- 15 ( Japanese DDG's are very similar to cruisers )
FRIGATE- 147
SUBMARINES- 203
AIRCRAFT CARRIERS- 7


Suprize suprize? The mighty USN is outnumbered in almost every aspect..

With that beeing said id like to point out a few things.
Oliver Hazard Perry and Alreigh Burke are pretty good and modern , but they lack any
true anti ship capability , they are pretty good in air corver and ASW , but not as good in anti ship capability , they are mostly for escort of CVN's.

USN vs all those navy's would lose badly on open sea , but not under their aircover near US shore..

And don't think US CVN's could do much , they would be cut off , they would be torpedoed by subs , and it aint anything they could do because the sub fleet is not a match for the combined fleet's.
 
LOL! look dude yes Iam America and love my country, i have served my country and i will die pertecting it
and so should every true citizen of any nation, but i am not just here to say american stuff is the best and every
other nations sucks, i give credit were credit is due, just like the french I said their Navy is a top noch Navy
but I also said that the Rafale is over rated, I also said that Russia is the 2nd most powerful country in the world
just with their Nukes alone they are and will remain a great power, those are facts, no body can deny that. Now
iam not here to protect the US Navy because there is no need to, its a fact that the US Navy is more powerful
than all of Europe combained, now i like most of the European countrys because they are allies, so i dont want
bash them but coman lets get serious 7 ACC, come on you are going to compare those little things with 12 Harriers
and some helicopters to the Nimitz Carriers I know you are smarter than that, just one of our Carrier groups has
more power than any European Navy including Russia, and you are saying close to their shores that Russia will
have advantege how when our 11 Carriers have over 1,000 air craft with awacs plus we got air bases in every corner
of the Earth the our Sub fleet alone will sink almost every thing Russia got and our Navy has almost the same amount
of Fighters as the Russian, Air force not to mention our bombers, land atack destroyers and Crusiers the Russians
will get  slaughtered in the open sea close to our shores their shore mars wherever that is a fact period! just let it go
there is nothing you can say that is going to chage that fact is a fact
 
 
 
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5thGuards       8/28/2007 9:19:17 AM
Too blinded by Propaganda too see the truth? Really sad , but I dont blame you , you are American..

USA airbase's would probably destroyed even long before war starts
Airbase is a Sitting Duck against Russian ICBM and IRBM's... read about R-36M Voyevoda
that Missile outclass the LGM-118 peacekeeper
Russia and Europe can simply turn US Carrier Strike Group to a big pile of Junk by their Submarines
especially Russia with its OSCAR II Class Submarine.
Go read about Meteorit-M , the new supersonic anti ship missile...
Your Carrier Strike Group won't last against 3-5 OscarII Class and Tu-22M3 backfire's...

I wanna know how many Hornets they can airborne in 7-19 minutes time window to intercept 120 P-700 Granit flying at different altitude and may evade their AEGIS and reinforced against CIWS
oh yeah..Russian P-1000 Vulkan may reach 700Km..far beyond the range of usual Carrier protection Forces..
Read abit about Germany's Predator Unmanned Combat Aircraft and also PIRATE Optical sensor pack since your claiming how advanced USN is.

Russian SSBN can launch Missile anywhere they want and Russian Bulava SS-X-30 Missile is resistant against any tricks that uncle sam have including their THEL.

Realize your idiotism and offer some objective opinion.
 
 
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usajoe    5thguards   8/28/2007 9:45:19 AM
Too blinded by Propaganda too see the truth? Really sad , but I dont blame you , you are American..

USA airbase's would probably destroyed even long before war starts
Airbase is a Sitting Duck against Russian ICBM and IRBM's... read about R-36M Voyevoda
that Missile outclass the LGM-118 peacekeeper
Russia and Europe can simply turn US Carrier Strike Group to a big pile of Junk by their Submarines
especially Russia with its OSCAR II Class Submarine.
Go read about Meteorit-M , the new supersonic anti ship missile...
Your Carrier Strike Group won't last against 3-5 OscarII Class and Tu-22M3 backfire's...

I wanna know how many Hornets they can airborne in 7-19 minutes time window to intercept 120 P-700 Granit flying at different altitude and may evade their AEGIS and reinforced against CIWS
oh yeah..Russian P-1000 Vulkan may reach 700Km..far beyond the range of usual Carrier protection Forces..
Read abit about Germany's Predator Unmanned Combat Aircraft and also PIRATE Optical sensor pack since your claiming how advanced USN is.

Russian SSBN can launch Missile anywhere they want and Russian Bulava SS-X-30 Missile is resistant against any tricks that uncle sam have including their THEL.

Realize your idiotism and offer some objective opinion.
 
 
HA HA HA !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
WOW now we are talking about Nukes thats the best you can do
what do you think the US has sling shots if we want we can bring
an end to civilization in less than 30 minutes, 14 SSBN's with 24
Trident II SLBM's thats over 2000 WH, OH how about the 500
Minuteman 3 with 1000 WH, OH and the 2000 WH on B-52's
and B-2, OH  and another 4,000 in reserve, so stop changing
the subject i was talkin about the Navy and there is no proof
you have that the US navy will loose to Europe for even
thinking that you should be a shame of your self.
 
Russia and Europe can simply turn US Carrier Strike Group to a big pile of Junk by their Submarines
 
Oh and that statment shows either you have lost your mind or are a pathological liar,
pick one you got 2 choices that is the honest to god truth!
 
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