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Subject: Best western anti -ship missile?
BLUIE006    8/14/2007 8:31:40 AM
what do you consider the best western antiship missile
 
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Mechanic       8/18/2007 11:34:03 AM
 dirupted.


What?

disturbed?
 
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Mechanic       8/18/2007 12:51:23 PM
...And even if the US would shut down the whole GPS it would only degrade the incoming missiles to par with US ones: US NAVY has not ordered any Block II Harpoons, they only have older Block I missiles that are not equipped with GPS. Block II RGM-84L is only producted for export.

(Excluding SLAM(-ER) which are only air-alunched)

 
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EW3       8/18/2007 1:22:02 PM





One big difference in a situation where missile are flying towards us, is that we own GPS.  Turning on SA is very easy to do will not diminish the performance of US missles, while making life miserable for anyone shooting at us. 



But then thousands of US soldiers in Afganistan and Iraq have their commericial GPS devices dirupted.

It is also good to remember that these AShMs have also INS for midcourse and active radar for endgame. In fact it's only the latest blocks that even are equipped with a GPS. The impact of turning on SA would have very small effect on incoming missiles.

 
SA does not effect US military grade recievers that have SAASM and a few other capabilities (like RTCM SC-104).
The commercial grades will only be off a modest amount, which for ground ops should not hurt too much, but for missiles amd aircraft are crippling.    While INS may keep some enemy systems on a decent track, they suffer aggregate errors.  When we make a say that a JDAM has a 30meter CEP on INS only, the missing statements are how long was it from the last GPS update and at what distance?    The flight time of a JDAM is much less than that of a missile, so the CEP is likely much higher on INS missile after a 100nm flight.  
This may still be accurate enough to use with a missile with an active seeker but then you have issues of the target basket once it goes active.  And that active seeker can be spoofed.  It also advertises the presence of the missile(s). 
The ideal missile would have totally passive sensors and a stealthy airframe to prevent detection and get targetting updates via SATCOMM or UHF.  

 
 
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andyf       8/18/2007 8:57:47 PM
myself i like the idea of the image homing warhead,, that the israelis have pioneered
very hard to dodge
 
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Mechanic       8/19/2007 2:47:40 AM

myself i like the idea of the image homing warhead,, that the israelis have pioneered

very hard to dodge

IR smoke granade curtain would be very effective against IIR seekers.
http://www.army-technology.com/contractor_images/buck_neue/2_Scenario_Maske.jpg" height="544" width="800">

 
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Angry       8/21/2007 11:52:28 AM




Do you like the RBS 15 because it has a better wallop in its larger warhead than the Naval Strike Missile or do you believe it has better guidance and target recognition avionics?



 



How does NSM stack up among the missiles so far discussed?



 



Herald 



Personally I don't have enough information to tell which missile is the best: Harpoon, RBS-15 and Exocet look very similar. I was just annoyed by 5thGurads flat "is the best" statement.

Comparing Harpoon and RBS-15 following observations can be made:

Both have active radar, RALT, GPS (latest blocks), 3D waypoints, M0.8+ speed, sea skimming capability, ECCM capabilities, variable search patterns, launch weight of about 800kg etc, warhead of 200-226kg, ...

What is different is range: (according to PD)
Harpoon Block IC/BlockII: 124 km
RBS-15 Mk3: 200km
(Personally I think there is only insignificant difference in range)

I would say NSM (400kg launch weight) is a half league lower than Harpoon or RBS-15 or Exocet (launch weight 800kg). Smaller warhead, little less range. Is IIR better for AShM than AR? Maybe in some situations.

ps. I was thinking of surface to surface missiles.

I think the difference would be in flight profile with RBS 15 being high to low, getting lower with Harpoon being the traditional sea skimmer.
What block is Harpoon up to these days?  D? 
 
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doggtag       8/21/2007 12:42:48 PM
Does the USN still deploy Penguin from SH-60 LAMPS helos?
I vaguely recall, years ago, reading that they could use Penguin ASMs, and that it would be a commonplace tactic especially from Perry-class frigates.
 
Also, I don't think I would compare Penguin to Sea Skua.
Sea Skua has a warhead of only about 20-30kg, but Penguin's is over 100kg.
 
(and proof it still has future potential, http://www.janes.com/defence/naval_forces/news/jni/jni060725_1_n.shtml   ,especially for heicopters and other small combatants)
 
(although I'm guessing the Hellfire is also deployed by the USN also).
 
Developments of the NetFires PAM Precision Attack Missile have been leading to an air-launched variant that certainly draws much heritage from the Hellfire family (as well as JCM technologies), in the form of the PAASM Precision Attack, Air to Surface Missile (seen here in pdf form, from Raytheon: http://www.raytheon.com/media/pas07/pdf/paasm.pdf  )
 
 
Sea Skua actually has a limited combat record from the Persian Gulf, where RN Lynxs used them against a number of small gunboats and, IIRC, a garrisoned offshore platform.
These smaller missiles may be seen by some as crippling weapons, unable to totally defeat larger vessels.
But they are more than adequate to severely disable a number of FACs (fast attack craft), gunboats, and missile corvettes.
But even en masse, a barrage of these could shut down many larger ships.
 
 
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Rasputin       8/21/2007 1:00:08 PM
India has made known its desire to sell the Bramos missile to other countries, they have mainly mentioned western bloc allies as potential customers.

Since the bramos is being made available to the western countries, can it be considered among the western missiles though it is based on Russian technology?

So I understand the ramjets of the bramos run on liquid fuel, are there any other Western missiles that run on liquid fuel? Would it still be as dangerous and health hazordous for the ships crew to refuel the missile?

 
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gf0012-aust       8/21/2007 1:25:02 PM


So I understand the ramjets of the bramos run on liquid fuel, are there any other Western missiles that run on liquid fuel? Would it still be as dangerous and health hazordous for the ships crew to refuel the missile?

As soon as you have liquid fueled systems you invite a legion of problems.  reloads and onboard volatility being two of the basics.
I'd hate to be on an indian skimmer armed with brahmos if it was struck by any incoming.
 
your fire teams would earn their money on the day.....

 
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YelliChink       8/21/2007 1:31:05 PM




So I understand the ramjets of the bramos run on liquid fuel, are there any other Western missiles that run on liquid fuel? Would it still be as dangerous and health hazordous for the ships crew to refuel the missile?


As soon as you have liquid fueled systems you invite a legion of problems.  reloads and onboard volatility being two of the basics.

I'd hate to be on an indian skimmer armed with brahmos if it was struck by any incoming.

 

your fire teams would earn their money on the day.....




I thought that ramjets eat some kind of gel fuel and requires preheat to liquidfy it.
 
Aren't other jet-powered AShM all use "liquid" fuel?
 
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