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Subject: Best western anti -ship missile?
BLUIE006    8/14/2007 8:31:40 AM
what do you consider the best western antiship missile
 
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Bluewings12       8/15/2007 8:28:48 PM
The French Exocet AM-39 B2 Mod-2 (Aircraft/Shopper launched) or the Exocet MM-40 Blk3 are not to be taken lightly .
They are totally different missile than in the Falklands .

Cheers .
 
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Herald1234       8/15/2007 10:07:10 PM




Do you like the RBS 15 because it has a better wallop in its larger warhead than the Naval Strike Missile or do you believe it has better guidance and target recognition avionics?



 



How does NSM stack up among the missiles so far discussed?



 



Herald 



Personally I don't have enough information to tell which missile is the best: Harpoon, RBS-15 and Exocet look very similar. I was just annoyed by 5thGurads flat "is the best" statement.

Comparing Harpoon and RBS-15 following observations can be made:

Both have active radar, RALT, GPS (latest blocks), 3D waypoints, M0.8+ speed, sea skimming capability, ECCM capabilities, variable search patterns, launch weight of about 800kg etc, warhead of 200-226kg, ...

What is different is range: (according to PD)
Harpoon Block IC/BlockII: 124 km
RBS-15 Mk3: 200km
(Personally I think there is only insignificant difference in range)

I would say NSM (400kg launch weight) is a half league lower than Harpoon or RBS-15 or Exocet (launch weight 800kg). Smaller warhead, little less range. Is IIR better for AShM than AR? Maybe in some situations.

ps. I was thinking of surface to surface missiles.


I believe that I agree with this. I can see where NSM has an advantage if it is launched as an aerial weapon. You could modify the seeker head architecture you pack into any seaskimmer missile to serve your needs as long as you can cram the seeker into the alloted mass and volume..
 
What I find fascinating about the NSM is that it poses a credible frigate wrecking threat in a very compact form that could be air launched beyond effective SAM MER in salvo from a variety of aircraft. with a simple passive look, acquire, and shoot cycle. This has interesting implications for those navies equipped with [especially LO] aircraft and with medium-sized helos. 
 
Anybody want to guess why I think NSM ARM/IR might be better than a AR Exocet for a certain navy?

Herald
 
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Rasputin       8/16/2007 1:45:12 AM

Probably just like ACLM, they are nuke platforms and are supposed to deliver nuke blast to commie fleet once and for all in retaliation to Soviet nuke strike against NATO fleet. You don't need too much accuracy when the warhead is 10 times more powerful than the one dropped at Hiroshima, and the 1800km range makes sense for that kind of operations. They are quite useless nowadays since no other surface forces can confront a task force of USN, and knowing what you hit becomes more important in conventional warfare. Despite the range of modern ASM, most engagements of surface combatants are within 40km in the past 50 years. The most recent case, Israeli Naval shit hit by POG C802, it was within visual range from the shore. It doesn't mean that extra range is useless, but it is overkill in most cases.

 

So, it could be interesting when SM6 enters into USN with ARH seeker, if it has a "surface mode" which is used against surface targets. 

That's the thing about all these BVR long range engagements. Unless there is a quantum leap in radar, satelite  and other sensors that can positively ID any or all UFOs or Unidentified ocean going objects, long range missiles and long range BVR engagements for fighters will not likely happen.

So despite the availability of long range missiles they are not deployed on the surface vessels as they are not practical. So I wonder for fighters and all their long range stand off abilites, in the end the first engagement might still come down to the mark 1 eyeball ID before the weapons can be free to fire.
 
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Herald1234       8/16/2007 1:56:46 AM
NCTI and altitude advantage.
 
Herald
 
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Mechanic       8/16/2007 9:52:58 AM





What is different is range: (according to PD)
Harpoon Block IC/BlockII: 124 km
RBS-15 Mk3: 200km
(Personally I think there is only insignificant difference in range)




How about comparing rage of RBS-15 Mk3 vs AGM-84F Harpoon ?

Kind of apples and oranges thing. RBS-15 mk3 comes only in surface-to-surface flavor while AGM-84F is only air launched.

RGM-84F (Block 1D) was developed but did not enter service.
 
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WarNerd       8/17/2007 7:39:07 AM

Kommaran, should be the most deadly german anti ship missile or for the whole EU, 20 shaped warheads to better devastate a ship, launched from aircraft and ships, but again the range is rather short. A small missile that packs a multiple punch,  I wonder if the missile were to strike a  small  gun boat, of the 20 independent shaped charged war heads, probably only 10 might blow up in the target, while the rest of  the other half would not get to detonate if the missile is designed to bore through ships?


This is strictly from memory, so feel free to correct me or add details.

The Kommaran does not have multiple warheads, but a single "multiple P warhead".
The warhead is a thick walled cylinder with large holes in the sides holding special metal plates.  The heavy outer casing permits it to punch through up to 90 mm of armor before the delay fuse detonates it.  The "multiple P" part of the warhead is from the special metal plates in the holes which are designed behave midway between shape charge and self forging fragment to disperse a pattern of 20 large armor piercing incendiary fragments radially from the explosion.
 
The design assumption (based on the Falklands war) is apparently that fire is more effective than simply an explosion for destroying a ship.
 
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Rasputin       8/17/2007 8:47:51 AM



Kommaran, should be the most deadly german anti ship missile or for the whole EU, 20 shaped warheads to better devastate a ship, launched from aircraft and ships, but again the range is rather short. A small missile that packs a multiple punch,  I wonder if the missile were to strike a  small  gun boat, of the 20 independent shaped charged war heads, probably only 10 might blow up in the target, while the rest of  the other half would not get to detonate if the missile is designed to bore through ships?



This is strictly from memory, so feel free to correct me or add details.


The Kommaran does not have multiple warheads, but a single "multiple P warhead".

The warhead is a thick walled cylinder with large holes in the sides holding special metal plates.  The heavy outer casing permits it to punch through up to 90 mm of armor before the delay fuse detonates it.  The "multiple P" part of the warhead is from the special metal plates in the holes which are designed behave midway between shape charge and self forging fragment to disperse a pattern of 20 large armor piercing incendiary fragments radially from the explosion.

 

The design assumption (based on the Falklands war) is apparently that fire is more effective than simply an explosion for destroying a ship.

So will the warhead be set to detonate all together from the independent cylinders? Or are they set to detonate in a sequential order as the missile continues to bore through the vessel?

90mm, I am still wondering if the Kommarn were to strike a very small thin skinned gunboat sized vessel, would the missile actually bore through and the unexploded warheads continue to detonate independently outside the other end of the vessel.?
 
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WarNerd       8/18/2007 5:17:05 AM







Kommaran, should be the most deadly german anti ship missile or for the whole EU, 20 shaped warheads to better devastate a ship, launched from aircraft and ships, but again the range is rather short. A small missile that packs a multiple punch,  I wonder if the missile were to strike a  small  gun boat, of the 20 independent shaped charged war heads, probably only 10 might blow up in the target, while the rest of  the other half would not get to detonate if the missile is designed to bore through ships?





This is strictly from memory, so feel free to correct me or add details.




The Kommaran does not have multiple warheads, but a single "multiple P warhead".



The warhead is a thick walled cylinder with large holes in the sides holding special metal plates.  The heavy outer casing permits it to punch through up to 90 mm of armor before the delay fuse detonates it.  The "multiple P" part of the warhead is from the special metal plates in the holes which are designed behave midway between shape charge and self forging fragment to disperse a pattern of 20 large armor piercing incendiary fragments radially from the explosion.



 



The design assumption (based on the Falklands war) is apparently that fire is more effective than simply an explosion for destroying a ship.



So will the warhead be set to detonate all together from the independent cylinders? Or are they set to detonate in a sequential order as the missile continues to bore through the vessel?

90mm, I am still wondering if the Kommarn were to strike a very small thin skinned gunboat sized vessel, would the missile actually bore through and the unexploded warheads continue to detonate independently outside the other end of the vessel.?


It's a single warhead with an unusual fragmentation mechanism, not a collection of independent warheads or a cluster bomb.
I suspect that the fuse mechanism for the missile is impact + time delay, so conceivably it could pass through a small vessel too detonate on the far side.
 
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EW3       8/18/2007 7:30:53 AM



Personally I don't have enough information to tell which missile is the best: Harpoon, RBS-15 and Exocet look very similar. I was just annoyed by 5thGurads flat "is the best" statement.

Comparing Harpoon and RBS-15 following observations can be made:

Both have active radar, RALT, GPS (latest blocks), 3D waypoints, M0.8+ speed, sea skimming capability, ECCM capabilities, variable search patterns, launch weight of about 800kg etc, warhead of 200-226kg, ...

What is different is range: (according to PD)
Harpoon Block IC/BlockII: 124 km
RBS-15 Mk3: 200km
(Personally I think there is only insignificant difference in range)

I would say NSM (400kg launch weight) is a half league lower than Harpoon or RBS-15 or Exocet (launch weight 800kg). Smaller warhead, little less range. Is IIR better for AShM than AR? Maybe in some situations.

ps. I was thinking of surface to surface missiles.
One big difference in a situation where missile are flying towards us, is that we own GPS.  Turning on SA is very easy to do will not diminish the performance of US missles, while making life miserable for anyone shooting at us. 
 
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Mechanic       8/18/2007 11:29:40 AM


One big difference in a situation where missile are flying towards us, is that we own GPS.  Turning on SA is very easy to do will not diminish the performance of US missles, while making life miserable for anyone shooting at us. 

But then thousands of US soldiers in Afganistan and Iraq have their commericial GPS devices dirupted.

It is also good to remember that these AShMs have also INS for midcourse and active radar for endgame. In fact it's only the latest blocks that even are equipped with a GPS. The impact of turning on SA would have very small effect on incoming missiles.
 
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