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Subject: Top Ten Warships of All Time- Miltary Channel
buzzard    5/30/2006 10:54:25 AM
OK, yesterday I caught part of this show on the Military Channel. It had, IMO a rather odd set of picks for the top ships in history. I really don't quite get how they made their evaluations. 1 Iowa Class battleships 2 Nimitz Carriers 3 Aegis Cruisers 4 Queen Elizabeth Battleships 5 Fletcher Destroyers 6 North Caroina Class 7 Essex Class carriers 8 Bismark 9 Graf Spee 10 Hood (!?!) Now I'm not sure of the order (precisely, though I know 1-4 are correct), and maybe they limited things to the 20th century (which seems like the only way this list could be excusable). I have to ask, what the hell were they thinking? The Hood did not even vaguely deserve to be on the list other than due to noteriety. The Bismark and Graf Spee were pretty much meaningless in effect. Why are there no submarines even on the list? So, given this rather strange list we are presented with, what would your choices be. For the sake of argument, let's limit things to 20th century. Since I chose this forum choice, why don't we stick to surface ships at that. buzzard
 
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Herald12345       4/28/2008 8:21:29 PM
South Dakota suffered an electrical casualty in battle because an engineer made a mistake. Then she went blind and couldn't shoot. As a result she became a floating target. The armor held. Given that...... that makes it hard to objectively describe the South Dakota as a ship based on her battle history.

Good anti-aircraft warfare ship though.

Herald. 
 
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Polynkes       4/29/2008 4:56:48 AM
My point isn't just the South Dakota but the class itself.  Her sister ships had widespread success in both surface and anti-air combat.  More widespread than the Iowa, which entered service late in the war.
 
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Polynkes       4/29/2008 5:06:16 AM
Tho it was forced to withdraw, the South Dakota gave far more than it got, damaging three ships while receiving the bulk of the fire from the Japanese fleet.  Hardly a engagement to scoff at.
 
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Wiebs    Top 10 Warships   4/29/2008 8:09:30 AM
Top Ten Warships?  Wow, this is kind of fun...
Well, these are my Top 10 and why-

1 - USS Enterprise - CVN-65 lead the way for the Nuke CVN's of today.  But the vessels named Big E have done so for centuries, past and future.  Future of course is fantasy but we even have a car rental company named after a ship.  Go figure.

2 - USS Arizona - Images of BB 39 burning on the bottom of Pearl Harbor galvanized a nation in the early days of the US entrance into WW II.  She might not have been a technological wonder or proved herself in battle but she is still a part of our fabric even today. 

3 - USS Constitution - What needs to be said for "Old Ironsides?"

4 - Yamato - Massive array of machinery and might.  She and her sister ships, built or planned certainly captured the attention of America's Admirals in the Pacific.  You can't help but wonder what-if.

5 - Gato Class Submarines - They were produced in great numbers and many of them made history by themselves.  They were all crewed by courageous men as they turned the tide in the Pacific. 

6 - Fletcher Class Destroyers - They too were a large class of ships but they gave the US Navy a multi-mission warship that paid for its existance ten-fold and a few even lived on into the 21st Century.

7 - USS Saint Paul (CA-73)  I mention her  in name only because of the large number of ships in this category.  The Fighting Saint served her country continuously from 1945 to 1971.  I never served on any warship and I don't know of design flaws and short comings of any naval combatant other than what is written but the Cruisers of the US Navy and of most navies in WW II took part in a great deal of action.  Cruisers fascinate me, even today's Aegis Class but none more so than the Treaty Classes, Brooklyn, Atlanta, Cleveland and Baltimore Classes.   The Alaska Class as well. It seems difficult to believe that the US Navy actually build a ship like her and her two sisters.

8 - All of the ships that make up the Under-Way Rplenishment option of the US Navy.  Past and present, they made and make the US Navy a wonderful operating force, always on the move and relatively efficient. 

9 - HMS Hood - The Royal Navy is not represented highly on my list, not because of their lack of quality ships throughout  time, only because this is just a Top "10" list.  HMS Hood served Britain well until her disaster in 1941.  The most famous of British ships in went down fighting, what is more honorable in the eyes of historians?  There are countless other ships of the Royal Navy deserving of the "Honorable" status as history shows.

10 - USS Missouri - Douglas MacArthur, Cher and Steven Segal continue to make her famous.  The Iowa Class Battleships deserve their place in history and are magnificient vessels.  The WW II Japanese Surrender was signed on BB 63 on September 2, 1945 and she sailed on and off from 1945 to 1992. 

Ships are ships.  They are great lumps of steel and cable and asbestos and who knows what else.  Without brave men and women to crew them and cunning Captains and Admirals to direct them, none of us would be reading or writing about any ship. 


 
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larryjcr       5/3/2008 11:39:24 AM







I'd almost have to go with categories rather than specific ships. When it gets down to it, the Richelieu could of taken the spot that belongs to the Bismarck. Both were extremely fast for their time and well gunned. Both only put armor where it counted and left soft spots all over where realistically practical to shave weight. The Bismarck was simply a big battle-cruiser - hardly revolutionary really - while the Richelieu was a true revolution in Battleship design. The Richelieu was unique in its all or nothing armor face and would of presented a relatively small silhouette while simultaneously able to fire full broadsides up to 250 degrees of arc. What other battleship could charge headon and aim its full suite - let alone eight 15-inchers - while doing so?



Actually, the 'all or nothing' armor philosophy (and it was called exactly that) was introduced in the US Navy prior to WWI.  The first ships to feature it were the OKLAHOMA class battleships, and all later US BBs went that was.



My list would include:



HMS DREADNAUGHT -- obvious reasons



HMS SWIFT -- first really large destroyer, largest DD and fastest ship in the RN for all of WWI, with distinguished



                                 combat record.  Given a 6-inch gun on refit (largest gun EVER put on a RN DD.  The Germans



                                REALLY didn't like meeting her in the dark.



IJNS FUBUKI -- first 'special type' DD.  So good that the USN and RN were playing catch up until about 1944.



USS ENTERPRISE (CV6) -- probably the best service record of ANY WWII warship of ANY country.



USS ENTERPRISE (CVN65) -- first nuclear carrier.



IJNS ZUIKAKU -- probably in more battles than any other carrier of WWII.  ALL major actions except Midway.



USS NAUTILUS -- first nuclear submarine. 



USS HELENA -- survived two major surface actions off Guadelcanal without serious damage, including the First Battle



                              of Guadelcanal, the most savage surface action of WWII.  Bow replaced after it was blown off at



                               Pearl Harbor.  Came off again when she took torpedos at the Battle of Kula Gulf.  That time she



                               was sunk.





 



Incorrect.

Zuikaku was at  Pearl Harbor, but not at Midway, nor during the Doolittle Raid, which WAS a carrier action akin to Pearl Harbor. Zuikaku did not survive Leyte Gulf which means she was not off Okinawa when Enterprise was and when she  participated in the final fleet action against Yamato. So the record for carrier versus carrier or in total number of naval engagements goes to ENTERPRISE.

The Fubukis were over-matched by the Fletchers in 1942. Better ASW, better AAW, and after SAMAR nobody could doubt the Fletchers at all in ASuW.   

Best destroyer ever at the time it was introduced.

Herald

The Doolittle-Halsey raid was not a
 
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Herald12345    Brief reply to a person who is historically SLOPPY.   5/3/2008 9:01:35 PM
US cruisers sank a picket ship during the Doolittle raid-naval  surface action.
Japanese submarine sunk by USS Ward in an ASW action.

Even by your stupid criteria. therefore, Pearl Harbor and the Doolittle Raid were BATTLES.

Herald

 
 
 
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larryjcr       5/3/2008 11:50:46 PM

US cruisers sank a picket ship during the Doolittle raid-naval  surface action.
Japanese submarine sunk by USS Ward in an ASW action.

Even by your stupid criteria. therefore, Pearl Harbor and the Doolittle Raid were BATTLES.

Herald

 
 

Not so.  The picket boat was a joke.  It had no weapons except a radio.  It's only contribution to the strike was forcing Halsey to launch earlier than planned, which would have occurred even if it had been only a civilian fishing boat (which, in fact is what the boat was with the radio added).  It was the threat of discovery that the boat represente that forced the early launch. 
The midget subs were another meaningless side issue, included in the attack at all only because of the way that the Japanese planned operations by negotiation.  It was, in any event, trying to attack the fleet IN THE ANCHORAGE.  The fact that one was killed by the picket ship at the harbor entrance doesn't make it a naval battle, any more that the fact that another one was rammed inside the harbor. 
 
I also don't consider it a naval battle when carrier a/c attack a convoy of cargo ships with two or three escorts, which happened, for example, during the Third Fleet's incursion into the South China Sea.  A battle is a BATTLE.  A contest in which there is at least a theoretical chance the weaker force might inflict some kind of losses.  The IJN CVs in the Leyte Gulf action COULD have had a/c for a strike, just as HERMES MIGHT have had a/c for some kind of strike.  Radio or not, the fishing boat was just a fishing boat, dangerous only to the fishes. 
 
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larryjcr    Why?   5/4/2008 12:41:52 AM
By the way, Herald, why argue about Pearl Harbor anyway??  Since both ENTERPRISE and ZUIKAKU were present, it wouldn't effect the relative number of battles the two ships were in anyway.
 
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Wicked Chinchilla       5/4/2008 12:34:00 PM
The Fishing boat had a radio.  Just because it wasn't a significant immediate threat does not make it irrelevant or impotent.  The US Navy obviously regarded that insignificant fishing boat as a large threat being that they sunk the thing and launched the bombers, which were already stretching their range, very early.  

As for your other arguments: if the actual navies involved in the fighting believe what you might call non-battles battles by awarding them titles, commendations, or awards declaring as such, I will go with the Official story over some random guy on the internet.  You have lots of knowledge but the Navies that are involved know a hell of a lot more about it than you.  
 
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Herald12345       5/4/2008 2:52:31 PM

By the way, Herald, why argue about Pearl Harbor anyway??  Since both ENTERPRISE and ZUIKAKU were present, it wouldn't effect the relative number of battles the two ships were in anyway.

The fact that an actual battle occurred seems to have escaped you. That is why.

Herald

 
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