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Subject: USS Carronade
Librarian    5/19/2006 4:14:33 PM
I was perusing a late 60s copy of Jane's Fighting ships and came across the listing for a USS Carronade LFR-1. I had read about it in a comic book many years earlier. In the entry in Jane's it appeared to have been built in response to the Korean War, commissioned in about 1955, retired to reserve in 1960 and then reactivated in about 1965. From the web I found out that it served in Vietnam. However, I couldn't find any reference as to how effective it was. Does anyone know how useful it was?
 
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gf0012-aust    RE:Naval guns - accuracy? MR   5/21/2006 11:34:45 PM
"On these small lightweight ships I wonder how much the weight and recoil from a 155mm might require adding but it worth considering. " artyengineer might be able to throw some recoil figures in for the M-777, but I remember seeing data for the TDS-120 (120mm) that showed it generated 15 tons of recoil.
 
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EW3    RE:Naval guns - accuracy? gf   5/21/2006 11:46:44 PM
Just got done reading up on the Bofors 57mm mkIII, and I'm fairly convinced it's a winner. Good range against surface targets and excellent fire rate for AA defense. Anything beyond that can be handled by a variety of rockets/missiles. Big guns just don't make sense anymore. Should add that the SEA RAM missile system is also capable against small vessels to a range of about 4+nm (although I would save them for AA)
 
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Yimmy    RE:Naval guns - accuracy? gf   5/22/2006 5:45:36 AM
Guns at the most basic level will always be superior to rockets. This being due to the guns propellant being burned up in the tube, while the rocket has to carry the weight of its.
 
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B.Smitty    RE:Naval guns - accuracy? gf   5/22/2006 8:06:50 AM
Guns at the most basic level will always be superior to rockets. Hardly. Guns have different, and often complimentary, properties to missiles and rockets. Unfortunately, to get the ranges and accuracies needed for NSFS, guns and their munitions have to go to inordinate and expensive lengths. These tend to mitigate one of artillery's advantages - the relatively inexpensive nature of its munitions. LRLAP and ERGM are essentially gun-launched missiles. They have rocket propulsion, guidance, folding control surfaces, and so on. However, unlike traditional missiles, these rounds have to cope with high-G firings. This vastly complicates their design and production. As to the relative propulsive efficiencies of the two, I have to disagree here too. Guns can only contribute a relatively short duration impulse to a projectile. There's a reason why modern tube arty maxes out at 52km (VLAP), but rockets like ATACMS can go 300km or further and "guided rockets" like the Minuteman can go thousands.
 
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MadRat    RE:Naval guns - accuracy? gf   5/22/2006 8:46:05 AM
Well, for one rockets tend to fly in much thinner atmosphere for those ranges. The gun is going to require relatively little in the expense of propellant to get its range. The gun trajectory is going to be in the lower atmosphere where air resistance is much higher. The gun is also going to depend more likely on unguided projectiles which are also cheaper. The rocket needs guidance for any useful range beyond the gun's range. That makes it inherently more expensive. The rocket also needs considerably more propellant to get off the ground. Per nautical mile it will use relatively a fraction what a gun uses, but pound for pound the gun is more efficient at equal ranges. It gets even more expensive when you consider the cost of a hot or cold launch. The hot launch generally destroys the launcher. The cold launch takes a pre-ignition boost that again adds cost to the overall system. They could combine rockets and guns in a two-stage rocket from a mortar system. The hot launch wouldn't destroy the launcher. The first stage of the rocket would take it to the apex. The second stage would take it to target or at least to the glide phase. Not all multistage rockets have to have the complexity of an Atlas V. Estes model rockets used to offer class A two stagers for under $50.
 
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VelocityVector    RE:Naval guns - accuracy? MadRat   5/22/2006 11:18:53 AM
> Estes model rockets > used to offer class A > two stagers for under > $50. I miss my Estes scissor wing transport. It was the ultimate glide weapon when I was a kid. My X-ray carried the heavy payloads. Reconnaissance was conducted via RocketCam, however, the local drug store photo lab frequently delayed transmitting the images to the field-child combatant commander. My appeals to the higher-ups usually were ignored. v^2
 
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EW3    RE:Naval guns - accuracy? V^2   5/22/2006 11:28:13 AM
I used to fly centuri model rocket.... Used to spend long summer hours with my friends flying rockets and model airplanes. Right in NYC. From what I understand both activities are banned or regulated by the feds. How sad and pathetic.
 
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Librarian    RE:USS Carronade   5/22/2006 11:58:23 AM
Mad Rat. I had seen the first site you mentioned but not the other two. The Popular mechanics cover was very fun to see. However, I still don't have an idea about whether the design was particularly effective. At one level, the fact they didn't build more of them, suggests not, but then maybe the mission was too specialised to warrant more them. After all, I don't think there was a huge need for such a vessel post-Korea.
 
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VelocityVector    RE:USS Carronade - EW3   5/22/2006 1:19:30 PM
Yep, it’s true. Each is a verbotten no-no inside downtown Chicag-o. Makes no sense with our enormous lakefront parklands -- unless I suppose you believe the local rumor that there are manpads stationed on the roof of the Sears Tower and they don’t want to deal with smoke trails and untracked aerial surveillance ;>] Then again, it’s the non-existent threats which are the easiest ones to protect against. Our government bureaucrats busy at work, justifying their budgetary requests ... v^2
 
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tianjinrob    RE:USS Carronade - EW3   5/22/2006 4:17:03 PM
Maybe mistaken here, but didn't we talk about a guided 155mm gliding munition sometime ago? It was supposed to be in service and have FAR greater range than standard munitions. Also GPS guided... haven't we discussed this before? Maybe off my rocker~ Thanks for your grace here, TJrob
 
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