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Subject: Communist China and N. Korea, What To Do?
CJH    5/15/2005 7:58:23 PM
It looks as if the Chicoms are pursuing a very faulty policy by effectively supporting North Korea. One wonders if they are becoming weak and incompetent. How shall we approach the Korean peninsula situation? Should we hold a summit with the nations threatened by China and N. Korea? Should we begin talks with Japan about transfering nuclear weapons technology to it? Do we need a NATO in the Far East? Will the Chicom government fall of its own weight to the cheers of a dissatisfied Chinese people? How desperate are the N. Korean people? Can we infiltrate personal explosive devices to them should they be on the edge of a desperate revolt?
 
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timon_phocas    RE:Communist China and N. Korea, What To Do?   5/19/2005 1:02:29 PM
China sees no downside to North Korea having nukes. the only real downside China sees is if North Korea collapses and causes waves of starving refugees to swarm across the Yalu River into China. This could also give South Korea (a prosperous democracy) a land border with China (something to be avoided) It doesn't bother China if North Korea uses nuclear weapons to extort aid from South Korea or the USA. They're not paying for it. If the aid props up North Korea for another generation, well then, they've gotten others to pay for keeping Norht Korea stable. It doesn't bother China if North Korea's nuclear weapons program is a thorny problem for the USA. The more problems the USA has, the better it is for China Japan and South Korea going nuclear might be a disadvantage for China, but (effectively speaking) using nuclear weapons would be suicidal for either of those 2 countries. Not much more risk than than China already faces with Russia, the USA and India. North Korea's Stalinist security is loosening a bit. I heard a report this morning on NPR about a UN food aid worker who has, according to the report, freedom to travel to a small number of cities without a minder m(on his own motorcycle). How many other people are getting through? I know that US special ops teams practiced insertions on NK beaches back in the seventies (at the height of the terror). Are we doing any less now? Perhaps North Korea's not as inpenetrable a place as we think. Romania's armed forces threw Coucesceau out and disguised it as a popular revolt. They had to fight a bloody battle with Coucesceau's security forces to win it. Maybe this can be encouraged, or initiated and then reinforced.
 
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CJH    RE:Communist China and N. Korea, What To Do?   5/20/2005 2:06:25 PM
I guess I don't see the "why" of China's not being worried about NK's nukes, of China's fearing a flood of refugees, of China's not wanting SK on its doorstep. NK's nukes could drag China into a war not of its own choosing. It's a matter of control vs non-control and NK seems out of control. If NK's government collapses, why would China not be justified in establishing an occupation government there a la CPA with its police and military? Nobody is going to kick them out. Either by staying or by dictating through a puppet government, NK would become a China province. If there are refugees, why would the refugees not flood SK instead of China particularly if the Chinese actively encouraged them to travel south? The SK's wouldn't shoot them at the border would they? Or would they? The issue of China's neighbors having nukes is not necessarily that those weapons would be used but rather how those nukes would alter the foreign policy decisions of those nations. They would be more determined to get their way at the risk of unplanned conflict. I still wonder if the CCP has both its oars in the water so to speak.
 
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timon_phocas    RE:Communist China and N. Korea - CJH    5/20/2005 2:49:31 PM
>>I guess I don't see the "why" of China's not being worried about NK's nukes<< I am assuming that China's current policy is intentional, as opposed to an internal factional logjam. But if it is intentional, it must follow that they think NK having nuclear weapons is not a threat to them. Like you, I don't think that is wise. What happens, for example if NK sells nukes that endmup being used by China's Muslim rebel groups? >>If there are refugees, why would the refugees not flood SK instead of China particularly if the Chinese actively encouraged them to travel south? The SK's wouldn't shoot them at the border would they? Or would they?<< There are already thousands of North Korean refugees in the Chinese border areas. I haven't heard of the Yalu river being mined, but the DMZ to the south is heavily mined. I think the direction a refugee chooses would depend on how close they are to a given border and which direction the roads travel. >>If NK's government collapses, why would China not be justified in establishing an occupation government there a la CPA with its police and military? Nobody is going to kick them out. Either by staying or by dictating through a puppet government, NK would become a China province.<< well, that's certainly happened before, but I think that China would rather have us pay for NK to administer itself. >>I still wonder if the CCP has both its oars in the water so to speak.<< ditto
 
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sp2    RE:Communist China and N. Korea, What To Do?   6/21/2005 3:28:28 PM
"If NK's government collapses, why would China not be justified in establishing an occupation government there a la CPA with its police and military? Nobody is going to kick them out. Either by staying or by dictating through a puppet government, NK would become a China province." That is a really good point. I like talking to guys like you. However, I am a little confused about your worry and your definition of puppet government. You mean like what the U.S had done to Iraq, Jordan, South Korea, Japan, etc? Hmmmmm, I can't name one puppet government that China owns yet. I am sorry, I am missing a lot of points here. Who was trying to take over the world again?
 
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joe6pack    RE:Communist China and N. Korea, What To Do?   6/21/2005 3:36:40 PM
**one puppet government that China owns yet** cough err Tibet... cough.. I'd North Korea is pretty close. Once the Russian aid dried up, North Korea depends on most of it's support from China. Who says the North Korean government has to collapse? The only thing really keeping it afloat is China, I'd say that's about as puppet as you get.
 
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sp2    RE:Communist China and N. Korea, What To Do?   6/21/2005 3:56:05 PM
"cough err Tibet... cough.." LoL this is funny. I am really tired of Tibet being mentioned over and over again. What next? What is your response to Iraq? Jordan? Philiphine? South Korea? Japan? Do you want more? "The only thing really keeping it afloat is China, I'd say that's about as puppet as you get." You mean like the way the U.S is keeping the SK and Japan economy afloat and forcing them to agree with your invasion of Iraq? This is a joke. You do know that you are invading Iraq for oil not freedom right? I also hope you do know that your government is currently working in installing a boot licking puppet government in Iraq right (e.g. another SK/Japan in the middle east)? Don't you think it is wrong?
 
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joe6pack    RE:Communist China and N. Korea, What To Do?   6/21/2005 4:06:33 PM
"LoL this is funny. I am really tired of Tibet being mentioned over and over again. " Hey, all I did was point out a hole in your memory. You said you couldn't think of "ANYWHWERE" "What is your response to Iraq? Jordan? Philiphine? South Korea? Japan? Do you want more?" I don't recall that I argued against your points on any of those. The US does have a lot to do with their defense / economy etc and I don't deny we have a lot of influence over them. "You mean like the way the U.S is keeping the SK and Japan economy afloat and forcing them to agree with your invasion of Iraq?" I think Japan and SK Korea sell products around the world. While the US is a major consumer, we are not the only ones. I also see you aren't denying North Korea is a Chinese vassel state ;-) "You do know that you are invading Iraq for oil not freedom right?" Can't we do both? "I also hope you do know that your government is currently working in installing a boot licking puppet government in Iraq right" I suppose we shall see. Most places we've removed ruthless dictators from have turned out to be less than thrilled with us in later years.. "e.g. another SK/Japan in the middle east)? " I can only hope that Iraq will become as prosperous and peacefull as Japan and SK. "Don't you think it is wrong?" Nope, I'm perfectly ok with it.
 
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Herc the Merc    to SP2   6/21/2005 4:23:22 PM
Have you heard of Darfur in Sudan-- that is Chinese "imperialism" for Oil, China supporting Iran for Natural gas & Oil contracts--do you like supporting Ayatollah's? China giving nuclear weapons and missiles to Pakistn- you agree with that?? China harrasing Taiwan- u should forget it noo, What about political freedoms in China remember Zhao.
 
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