Military History | How To Make War | Wars Around the World Rules of Use How to Behave on an Internet Forum
Korea Discussion Board
   Return to Topic Page
Subject: ROKN Patrol Corvette sucken by DPRK torpedo boat
YelliChink    3/26/2010 12:10:07 PM
Just happened 2150 Korean local time. Chinese reports say that it was DPRK torpedo boat. The ROKN corvette sunk is probably a 1200t PCC. I can't read Korean so I am not sure which one exactly. At this moment, 59 out of 104 crew have been saved so far. Best wishes to the still missing ones and condolence to families of lost sailors.
 
Quote    Reply

Show Only Poster Name and Title     Newest to Oldest
Reactive       3/28/2010 5:24:06 PM
Reactive,

It's not that simple. It has nothing to do with being gutless. If there is a conspiracy/coverup, and the intent is to prevent an incident the ROK has to respond to. Then it is for reasons of prudence. ~20% of ROK population lived in Seoul and they are in range of enough NORK artillery that even a nuclear weapon would probably not make a difference in terms of casualties should fighting break out. If you are going to war, you need to be sure absolutely no other or better options exist. FInally, you need to make sure you are acting in verifiable evidence. Waring on principle sounds good but it's not very practical. If the USA or USSR went to war on principle then we probably would not be here.

 I guess I just don't like the "us and them" attitude that exists in South Korea, it works so long as you can honestly say that suffering in the south matters more than suffering in the north.
 
A long time ago in a faraway land...

There's a village, with 1000 people, there is a civil war between the north of the village and the south, 500 people in the North (i'm not representing realistic ratios here) are ruled by a tyrant who decides that he will kill 1 person a day because he has serious penis-envy issues, the other 500 people are democratic, and conclude, very rationally, that a war with the tyrant will cost many many lives, over 200 people.
 
Once a year goes by, each side of the village decides that there are really now two villages, and that their side has better living conditions and higher pay, each village now names themselves "the republic of the village" in the south's case and the "democratic peoples republic of the village" in the north, the south lives peacefully and happily wheras the situation in the north gets worse day by day, year after year, until everyone is forced to eat tree bark or beg for scraps from the south to survive.
 
Eventually the south agrees to send food and gold to the tyrant in the north on condition that he will manage his affairs internally. Unfortunately this tyrant uses the food and gold to feed and arm his army and tries to develop a weapon that though crude, would, when completed in a few years time make it impossible for the south to ever risk another war.
 
Eventually the South of the village develops its economy and trade to the point that it has a very well trained army, it now realises that it can take the North while only losing 50 people but then a very wise man suggests that the Northern village is so very poor that if they became one united greater village again, they would have to give some of their food and gold away, so much in fact that all they had worked so hard for would then have to be given away to people who are now living in a completely seperate village.
 
This same very wise man suggests that no matter what intimidation the North inflicts on the South, that they should wait for him to develop his super-weapon in order that people in the democratic south can not even raise the possibility of war in the first place, it would, he concludes, be a fantastic excuse to maintain the status-quo. Each side isolated beyond any future possible unification. He gets elected usually, and each year he sends a delegation to meet with a delegation from the north, where they agree to future talks in a years time relating to the issue of the super-weapon.
 
Everyone lives happily ever after?
 
 
 
 
Seriously, the friendly fire, accidental explosion and mines are the things that need to be looked at in detail before we start rattling sabers.

 
Could be absolutely anything at this point, including friendly-fire, I'm not sabre rattling in response to this particular instance, will be very interested to find out what happened though. So far this does look very unusual, but as you say accidents happen, wayward mines do exist. No one seems to have reported being thrown in the air or the ship violently lurching to the point that people hit the ceiling or are severely injured from the force (as is the case with a torpedo detonating under the hull). No one has mentioned the entire ship being enveloped in a vast water-explosion either.
 
Quote    Reply

DarthAmerica       3/28/2010 5:42:37 PM

Really? A surfaced sub? While I did consider the possibility forgive me for assuming that the N. Koreans are far too stupid and remained on the surface for 15 minutes while being shelled. Perfectly logical.

 We don't make assumptions in this business. There are dozens of reasons a sub could be surfaced. 


Yes, I did decide a torpedo did this. Unless you can provide me with another reasonable explanation on how the ship was cut in half I'll stick to my guns. Because I'm sure as hell mines and magazine explosions don't do that.

I already did. I even explained to you how a mine could do that. I really don't care what you choose to speculate caused this.
 

OK, mines with torpedoes as payload. Do the N. Koreans possess any of these? No. 

 LOL no? Are you sure? Because I'm sure you are not. North Korea's mine inventories are extensive and the types of mines they have are not known to the general public. It's well within North Korea's technological capability to develop a weapon such as this. Include China, South Korea and the USA(CAPTOR or the old MK 31). So even IF you insist on a torpedo, what fired it and to whom did it belong is not known to the public. Another reason not to speculate and assign blame without facts.

So again, I ask you what did do this? Are you really that naive to think they were shooting at a flock of birds at 2100?

That's the point. I DON'T KNOW. NEITHER DO YOU. Nor do I have any proof that they didn't fire at birds. All I can prove is that if they did fire at birds, then they have demonstrated that they have IFF issues and didn't know what they were shooting at. If that is the case, then as much as most of you seem HELL BENT on blaming North Korea, you should also be looking into the possibility of Friendly Fire as well. 

Finally, if there is a conspiracy or cover up, you are probably never going to know that. Even if you figured it out, which so far is not likely, it would make no difference. The target audience is likely the S Korean people and saving face. Most people will not look into the matter beyond whats reported on the news. The involved parties would manage that. So all of the speculative accusations are really silly at this point.

-DA 
 








Actually, yes I do.







 No, you don't.







The main gun of the ship was engaged. That automatically rules out subs. The ship's keel was split in half. Sorry, but no saboteur is going to do that. That leaves us with a plane or another ship. 







 Wrong. Submarines, especially SSKs, do surface. This is just one example of why you should not jump to conclusions.







The only way that I know of to break a ships keel is to detonate a charge beneath the keel of the ship and generate a pressure wave which lifts the ship out of the water and the vacuum created breaks the ship under its own weight, ie. a torpedo. A mine creates a hole in the side of the ship and a munitions detonation would do t
 
Quote    Reply

Reactive       3/28/2010 5:56:53 PM
Any chance you guys could stop using "quote" chains, they're getting very long indeed..
 
Thanks,
 
R
 
Quote    Reply

Hamilcar    Reactive reply.   3/28/2010 6:32:51 PM
On September 1,1939, Hitler invaded Poland.
 

That is NOT Churchill.
 
H.
 
Quote    Reply

Hamilcar       3/28/2010 6:37:09 PM
The area of Cheonan's sinking is less than twenty meters. For those of you, who know what CAPTORS are and for what they are designed, that should tell you something about some of  the levels of commentary/competency here.  

H.
 
Quote    Reply

SantaClaws       3/28/2010 6:51:19 PM
Which the whole premise of a surfaced sub is just laughable anyways. It assumes many things (irony there). One, for whatever reason, the N. Koreans chose not to dive when they came under attack for 15 minutes. I find that difficult to believe. Your sub scenario also highlights the premise that it displayed hostile intent, otherwise why would the S Koreans fire on it? I don't believe it was a sub, but I find it amusing you state that it's possible the North Koreans are not at fault and then present a scenario which highlights conflict between the two nations.
 
And, yes, I am sure. Thanks for making another assumption there (irony again). The N Koreans employ the M-8, M-12, M-16 and M-26 mines. All of which are moored contact mines. That completely throws out your torpedo mine theory.
 
Here's the link to Janes if you want to verify yourself. (you need a subscription)
 
www4.janes.com/K2/doc.jsp?t=B&K2DocKey=/content1/janesdata/yb/juws/juws2107.htm@current&Prod_Name=JUWS&
 
And I would guess that developing something like this, domestically, is not really within N Korea's capability nor would it be feasible/cost effective for them to do so for various reasons I'd rather not deviate onto.
 
Anyways, that still leaves us with a ship that's been cut in half by the looks of the picture. And as I asked you before, go ahead and give your speculation as to what split the ship in half.
 
edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/03/27/skorea.ship.sinking/?hpt=T2
 
If you honestly think it was a contact mine that did it then you should take a lesson in physics.
 
 

We don't make assumptions in this business. There are dozens of reasons a sub could be surfaced. 

I already did. I even explained to you how a mine could do that. I really don't care what you choose to speculate caused this.

 
  LOL no? Are you sure? Because I'm sure you are not. North Korea's mine inventories are extensive and the types of mines they have are not known to the general public. It's well within North Korea's technological capability to develop a weapon such as this. Include China, South Korea and the USA(CAPTOR or the old MK 31). So even IF you insist on a torpedo, what fired it and to whom did it belong is not known to the public. Another reason not to speculate and assign blame without facts.




That's the point. I DON'T KNOW. NEITHER DO YOU. Nor do I have any proof that they didn't fire at birds. All I can prove is that if they did fire at birds, then they have demonstrated that they have IFF issues and didn't know what they were shooting at. If that is the case, then as much as most of you seem HELL BENT on blaming North Korea, you should also be looking into the possibility of Friendly Fire as well. 
 
Finally, if there is a conspiracy or cover up, you are probably never going to know that. Even if you figured it out, which so far is not likely, it would make no difference. The target audience is likely the S Korean people and saving face. Most people will not look into the matter beyond whats reported on the news. The involved parties would manage that. So all of the speculative accusations are really silly at this point.
 
 

 
Quote    Reply

SantaClaws       3/28/2010 7:07:14 PM
No, I didn't watch it but I thought the premise was funny, in the Brittany Spears train wreck sort of way.
 
Although some torpedoes do try to strike their target, many are now programmed to detonate beneath the ship. The result usually will cut most ships in half and it is pretty much a 1 shot 1 kill weapon.
 
I also found it odd that the reports say some of the crew were in their bunks and not at general quarters.
 
Although the ROK military is conscripted, I do believe that they are generally well trained, though I have never personally worked with them.
You did not seriously watch that film??. I happened to flick over at the point they tried to lure the shark into san francisco bay (unsure why - but the flow of the film seemed to imply uncaring /incompetent military). At that point it was dire, I was reaching for the remote at the point they engaged a submerged shark with the pop gun on the bow and reported its speed as in excess of 500 knots- it was just biting the bridge as i switched off. 

 

      ON TOPIC

 

 i would have expected a torpedo to have done a lot more damage to a ship that size, and i would have been expecting a hit amidships, (assuming no evasive manouvering)

 

As for the birds, there seems to be confusion on this point as to who was shooting and when.

 

If the corvette was shooting before the incident then iwould have expected  the crew to be at high readiness not as some witnesses say chilling in there buks.

 

if it was another vessel -possibly coming to assist - that opened up on a flock of gulls, then i dont find that to unbelievable.

 

Its a very confused picture

you have a ship reporting an explosion and its sinking, its in an area disputed with a belligerent neighbour, you dont know if its accident or design, you now have an unidentified target, nervous inexperienced and jumpy crew,

hell yeah, its a possible.

 

note im unaware of the training and standards of the ROK forces in general - but i believe they are a conscript force

 

 


 
Quote    Reply

DarthAmerica       3/28/2010 7:13:35 PM

The area of Cheonan's sinking is less than twenty meters. For those of you, who know what CAPTORS are and for what they are designed, that should tell you something about some of  the levels of commentary/competency here.  

H.

It seems you misunderstood. As usual...

-DA 
 
Quote    Reply

SantaClaws       3/28/2010 7:14:38 PM
And going along with Hamilcar, CAPTORs are deep water mines for use against subs. They are anchored hundreds of meters deep. So please stop with this whole mine/torpedo theory.
 
Quote    Reply

DarthAmerica       3/28/2010 7:14:45 PM

The area of Cheonan's sinking is less than twenty meters. For those of you, who know what CAPTORS are and for what they are designed, that should tell you something about some of  the levels of commentary/competency here.  

H.

It seems you misunderstood. As usual...

-DA 
 
Quote    Reply



 Latest
 News
 
 Most
 Read
 
 Most
 Commented
 Hot
 Topics