Military History | How To Make War | Wars Around the World Rules of Use How to Behave on an Internet Forum
Korea Discussion Board
   Return to Topic Page
Subject: ROKN Patrol Corvette sucken by DPRK torpedo boat
YelliChink    3/26/2010 12:10:07 PM
Just happened 2150 Korean local time. Chinese reports say that it was DPRK torpedo boat. The ROKN corvette sunk is probably a 1200t PCC. I can't read Korean so I am not sure which one exactly. At this moment, 59 out of 104 crew have been saved so far. Best wishes to the still missing ones and condolence to families of lost sailors.
 
Quote    Reply

Show Only Poster Name and Title     Newest to Oldest
Hamilcar    Claoms ypo knowledge.    5/3/2010 8:33:57 AM

I'm in favor of "siege" and against aggression, in favor of aggressive and against to wait. Isolation, economical and political, seam to work. But what if KRF get help from Russia? I'm not aware of a deal between China and Russia concerning NoK, but Russians are know to respect a deal when it suite them.
 
About the rice and post from
 

link
and

link
 

Hamilcar, you said:

"People have to eat. Can't buy food (no money), you starve. No food to buy?  Starve. No incentive to farm (profits from food sales because the money is no good.), no food. Riots."

Riots? Civil war. Regime change."

Can you say how the details of whole rice chain lead to that? Riots, civil war .
..
 
Example: French Revolution. 


I mean, some percentage of the rice (produced or imported) say 60%-90% are sold through shops at say 25 won and some (let say) 1%-5% are sold through market like one mentioned in that post. I mean, salaries in NoK are set by state and are not a problem to be paid by state. What's the mechanism there that grip and lead to famine? Not that I need to know, because my point is about details and about what real happen there, as oppose to generality or lack of detail of the mechanism in some media post. Not to mention a segment of the public that doesn't really know the details and the mechanism of socialism and communism ... I not hearing of any visit, as tourists, in those country (NoK, Cuba) and dialogs with people there. I'm in favour of press and do that, btw ... not that is possible thou ...
 
 
You have to be careful and fact based. Siege, as I said, is a horrible form of warfare. The DPRK,  like China, is misgoverned. Its people are not evil. Only its rulers....  
 
There been famine so far in NoK (or other communist state) before and they didn't collapse by it self. Cuba is a good example, regime is still on.


See reference for "national discipline", a more correct translation of the concept of Confuscist self reliance.. Given that national ,myth, the DPRK people will gladly suffer to remain "free" of external influence as the regime defines it. For a current example of such social delusions in the West, look at the UK and the US examples, both nations that need serious political and economoic reform, but whose regimes continue along the path to economic ruin based on the lies fed to the populace by the current misgoverning "elites".   
 
Of course, it's better to deal with problems one at time. Irak, Iran, Afganistan and ME are hot now, but the clock is ticking and the oil is above $80. $80 and volume mean money from oil and gas flow and plans (to build) can be accomplished before 2017-2020 ... ... When it come about NoK I'm looking and thinking mainly at SoK, to ask and do. China can help too :)

China will not help. See the reference to the burgeoning DPRK slave trade that continues. PRC bandits are true to themselves. They are bandits first.  
 
About media, Iran, nationalism a little later
 
Quote    Reply

Hamilcar    WP.   5/3/2010 9:01:52 AM




so don't pretend you know first hand, Gixxer. You don't. You were caught in an error, and nothing you say changes that.









I must have missed the catch.  What was his error?  Due to your poor communication habits, it appears that you are trying to say that what is in error is his statement that most Iranians do not live in Tehran.  If so, then you clearly are in error:

 

Iranian population in Tehran = 6.85million

Iranian population not in Tehran = (67.622million - 6.85million) = 60.772million

 

6.85million << 60.772million

 

Q.E.D.

 

Hamilcar, I wonder if you realize or care that your *incessant* *unrelenting* automatic knee-jerk reaction to try to attack and disprove everything you possibly can about anything DA ever says makes me naturally suspect everything *you* say, as I can no longer trust that you are only using reasoned argument yourself.  I certainly must believe that I am definitely not alone in this, although there obviously have been other posters over the years who have expressed strong support of you in your one-man offensive against DA.

 

Would you kindly refer to the data again?
 
 

ISTA     Population In Iran

http://www.irantour.org/images/world.gif" border="0" height="40" width="40" alt="" />.

Visa ? Tours ? Hotels ? Flights ? General ?Iran Embassies ? Contact ushttp://www.irantour.org/images/clear.gif" height="8" width="20" alt="" />

          » Online Iranian Currency Rate
          » Quote    Reply


CFG    @warpig   5/3/2010 9:28:59 AM
I also did notice urban/rural ratio "argument" used, but I wondered if is not better to ignore him. Those that read can think and do the math for themself. I also think he is emotional not rational ... never mind ...
 
As for reference to the person, I disagree. IMHO just figure will do. Only from that very post it seam that 25% of the population in rural one. It's true that it's hard to ignore him.
 
If one keep the personal/person out of discussion, emotional is diminish and rational increase. I think French have a say "present persons are excluded" just to gain more in a discussion.


I said and wanted to ignore him, then I changed my mind - that's not much good.
 
Please don't feed the troll.
 
Quote    Reply

CFG       5/3/2010 9:55:36 AM

As for reference to the person, I disagree. IMHO just figure will do. Only from that very post it seam that 25% of the population in rural one. It's true that it's hard to ignore him.




Typo, my bad, 75%, I was in hurry:
"As for reference to the person, I disagree. IMHO just figure will do. Only from that very post it seam that 75% of the population in rural one. It's true that it's hard to ignore him."
 
Quote    Reply

Mikko    Social dilemmas   5/3/2010 11:15:13 AM
I agree with Oberst Kriegschwein but don't support any labelling whatsoever.
 
In the light of everything we've seen it is quite clear that most Iranians do not live in metropolitan areas. 

I say again: Majority of Iranians live in places that are not regarded as metropolitan areas. The degree of "ruralness" isn't defined in detail on behalf of those who are excluded from living in metropolitan areas. (There are lots of towns with three sets of traffic lights that are still connected to the world somehow.)
 
This much is clear. Reading back and forth the thread there seems to be no evidence that DA has diverged from the path of stating anything than what is written above. I do not enitrely rule out the possibility that DA is well connected to SYSOPS and thus able to manipulate his posts retrospectively, appearing sane and coherent to most of us here. However that is unlikely and something that can't be proved.
 
Hamilcar, your personality traits puzzle me to great lengths. You show great ability for logic in matters technological. Everyone knows that. But you also frequently show great ability for logic in matters historical and political, and often are able to provide insights that necessarily require strong inner dialogue and knowing yourself. Your abilities to judge people don't stem from studying psychology or sociology at an university because your means to evaluate people are clearly given to you by life experience, not by academic studies. You evaluate high ranking officers as you'd seen too many bad managers during your life, and good ones too.
 
Yet - while everyone seeing these things happen for the first time would think you were high above it - you bring to SP some of its most trollish and annoying behavior. I've been thinking of a list of possible reasons:
 
1) You and DA are the same person and debating from multiple angles is your way of processing complex issues
 
2) You have some very personal reason to lose it every now and then of which I won't speculate
 
3) There is something so sinister in DA that (almost?) everyone else fails to see it and DA is a criminal mastermind
 
4) You sit in front of the computer so intensively and for so long periods that you lose grasp of social context and when you regain it, you intensively seek to lose it again
 
5) Posting here is part of your job description and everything you say or do has an unrevealed agenda, thus right now you seek to undermine DA The Progressor
 
6) I have a badly broken, split personality or something and it's me who's losing it as I comment on things that take place only inside my head; whether even the head in question excists... who knows. There is no Hamilcar, no DA and I'm dreaming this up. I'm in an Austrian asylum for the mentaly ill, near Innsbruck, drewling and strapped in a straightjacket, having my deep unconscious thinking I'm a Finn with English skills and a computer, with my parents standing next to my bed wondering about using me as an organ doner to my talented sibling with a failed kidney. All I really do is play chess with my toes against a glass of water. My real name is Horst.
 
Which is closest to reality?
 
M
 
Quote    Reply

CFG    ;))   5/3/2010 12:34:07 PM
SP has an betting stuff, I think ... I bet on 5.
"5) Posting here is part of your job description and everything you say or do has an unrevealed agenda, thus right now you seek to undermine DA The Progressor"
 
In this respect let me add a close one : he was in a (web) political campaing and got some habits. Now the campaign is slow or over ...

If it is just from the last posts it's : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don%27t_feed_the_troll
 
 Any way ... Horst ... ignoring him??
 
Funny post, M.
 
Quote    Reply

Mikko       5/3/2010 12:45:23 PM

SP has an betting stuff, I think ... I bet on 5.

"5) Posting here is part of your job description and everything you say or do has an unrevealed agenda, thus right now you seek to undermine DA The Progressor"

In this respect let me add a close one : he was in a (web) political campaing and got some habits. Now the campaign is slow or over ...

If it is just from the last posts it's :link

Any way ... Horst ... ignoring him??


Funny post, M.

Ignore him just because he's got flaws? No way. He's a house brand.
 
My strategy is to spend the next four years trying to break him into tears, make him to smell the cinammon buns made by some close old lady from his childhood and to ask DA for forgiveness. 
 
Quote    Reply

CFG    Gathered from media, some thoughts   5/3/2010 4:41:04 PM
First of all I'm not a sociologist. I'm sure there are some out there, qualify and proficient about Iran.
 
About the media (at large). Well, IMO in media the reasons and decisions of what and how to present are several. Some give what is request or expected (by a segment of the audience), some are superficial, some get order to publish, some try to make money, some sell fear or demonize, some present one part and not or little of other part ... .
For example, the movie '300' demonize Persians. A link against the movie is
I give this link because will lead me to nationalism, but until then ...
 
My personal contact/interaction with Iranians is limited to some kebab. Good chicken kebab ... but nothing more :).
So, my understanding from media is that the election was won by Ahmadinejad. It seam that he had good or very good advisers. Despite how he is in real, people voted more for him then for Mir-Hossein Moussavi: 24.5 million of the votes, nearly 62 percent, to 13.2 million votes.
Fraud, not free election, I agree - there was fraud. How much? Well ... that much. What do you do from there (as "US")? If the events are presented in a way (that were presented) it might help your policies.
To present distorded goes long way back in history, not only of the enemy but the situation too. Back at Thermopile, as one can learn from history, Greeks started to present distorted the Battle of Thermopile the very next year - BECAUSE it helps. And we do that, distorted view, with a lot of events, century after century. It helps. Because is connected also with the education (and not only) we will continue to use this help, presenting and using history/past and present events the way it suit us. Not much change in this regards during our life time because it helps, because it works.
 
No wonder "Western Media Misread Iran Elections"
 
But in the same time with the help it brings, will reduce the options, political options. Or at least reduce the chance of some. And that is not good for an intelligent person. Of course if one take decisions based on false, distorded view ... 
 
On that page are a lot about Iranians. ... In other place or books even more... For Greeks, Thermopile was "the great battle" ... and so on. For Persians as they consider themselves, or Iranians followers of Persians, that battle was a little importance, was on edge of Empire. And their past and history is full of great thinks and events. Their contribution to humanity is so great and so on ... I am not debating about history ... my point it's about nationalism. Today Iranians, long time a go Persians, are nationalist. A country with a very long history of wich they are proud of. That long history increase nationalism.
 
What I know about nationalism is that it doesn't go away. If someone give "food" to that nationalism will be voted and supported. Often, if you attack the leader you attack the nation. It is very difficult to separate a leader from the nationalist if that one doesn't make mistakes, political or PR ones.
And even when you separate the leader from people - most likely because he did something against the national interest - the felling and way of thinking as nationalist does NOT disappear. Persons are still nationalist after leader lose power. I understood that even if Iranians wear blue jeans, study in West, listen to western music, want change, they still love Iran as a nation.

Another think, IMO, Iranian society is patriarchal, as in father is the head of the family and men have authority over women and children. That is enhance by religion. Also, it mean that part of the women want change more then men, change of the regime. That doesn't mean women can do more then men in that regards, just that are more susceptible toward change. And most likely the men doesn't lean to change that particular detail. If I know right, 70% of the students are women, because of the status that bring the diploma. And they are encouraged by the regime to go to college.
 
Another contrast is that even if Ahmadinejad  have something personal with the Jewish people, the minority that exist in Iran is not oppressed.

I see Iran having a segment of population with some relation almost unchanged in past 500-1000 years. I wonder, at country side how many have running water and modern toilets, how work intensive is the procurement of food. Add to that the nationalism and the ability of rulers to pose on the same side with the nationalism. How about the plans and actions to raise Iran to a regional power as past Persian Empire?
 
 
Quote    Reply

warpig       5/4/2010 12:46:14 AM

How am I communicating now?



As far as I am concerned, you are still communicating poorly.  However, I did look through the statistics you cited to find the one pertinent stat that I assume you meant for us to find, which is that on one website Iran was considered to have a population in 2005 that was 67% urban, and on another website it was considered to be 68% (as best I can tell, also in 2005).  It seems to me that was all you needed to say, yet in two different posts you did not--or at least not clearly, as far as I'm concerned.
 
DA, the majority of Iranians are not rural, they are urban.  Obviously the great majority do not live in Tehran or even the Tehran metropolitan area, but they are a predominantly urbanized population.
 
 
Quote    Reply

DarthAmerica    @Warpig   5/4/2010 2:54:06 AM



How am I communicating now?








As far as I am concerned, you are still communicating poorly.  However, I did look through the statistics you cited to find the one pertinent stat that I assume you meant for us to find, which is that on one website Iran was considered to have a population in 2005 that was 67% urban, and on another website it was considered to be 68% (as best I can tell, also in 2005).  It seems to me that was all you needed to say, yet in two different posts you did not--or at least not clearly, as far as I'm concerned.

 

DA, the majority of Iranians are not rural, they are urban.  Obviously the great majority do not live in Tehran or even the Tehran metropolitan area, but they are a predominantly urbanized population.

 
Warpig,

This is going to be a bit difficult to communicate. But first let me concede something in the interest of integrity and acknowledging Hamilcar's somewhat vague way of making his point. I concede that by Iranian standards most Iranians are in fact urban. But by modern western standards, they are not. This is why the analysis and reporters in the main stream media got surprised by the results of the election and started screaming fraud. "Urban" in that part of the world can mean barely above "mud huts". For all intents and purposes these villagers living in very small communities are very much rural working class people and have limited connectivity and access to the kinds of media and modern conveniences we use to define urban in the west. This is Amahdinejad's base and they by far out number the Iranians who we frequently see in the streets of Tehran protesting or voicing opposition to the clerics who we consider "urban".

It's things like this that we here in the west need to understand in our interaction with people from these parts of the world. We often don't and that is why we go into these countries like bulls in a China shop with bad intel and inaccurate analysis of the situation. We have had a 10 year long very painful lesson on this subject and only now are we just barely starting to "get it" at great cost in blood and treasure. So I disagree with you that most Iranians are urban. I hope you understand the point I'm making and appreciate feedback good or otherwise. If not then we can agree to disagree here.

-DA 

 
 
Quote    Reply



 Latest
 News
 
 Most
 Read
 
 Most
 Commented
 Hot
 Topics