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Subject: ROKN Patrol Corvette sucken by DPRK torpedo boat
YelliChink    3/26/2010 12:10:07 PM
Just happened 2150 Korean local time. Chinese reports say that it was DPRK torpedo boat. The ROKN corvette sunk is probably a 1200t PCC. I can't read Korean so I am not sure which one exactly. At this moment, 59 out of 104 crew have been saved so far. Best wishes to the still missing ones and condolence to families of lost sailors.
 
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Hamilcar       4/24/2010 9:37:43 PM
 
War is a risky business. Caution is the watch-word until you are sure before you embark into one. Besides as soon as I saw enough evidence, I drew a conclusion. As the Maine article shows:
 

"In 1911 the Navy Department ordered a second board of inquiry after Congress voted funds for the removal of the wreck of Maine from Havana Harbor. U.S. Army engineers built a cofferdam around the sunken battleship, thus exposing it, and giving naval investigators an opportunity to examine and photograph the wreckage in detail. Finding the bottom hull plates in the area of the reserve six-inch magazine bent inward and back, the 1911 board concluded that a mine had detonated under the magazine, causing the explosion that destroyed the ship.

Technical experts at the time of both investigations disagreed with the findings, believing that spontaneous combustion of coal in the bunker adjacent to the reserve six-inch magazine was the most likely cause of the explosion on board the ship. In 1976, Admiral Hyman G. Rickover published his book, How the Battleship Maine Was Destroyed. The admiral became interested in the disaster and wondered if the application of modern scientific knowledge could determine the cause. He called on two experts on explosions and their effects on ship hulls. Using documentation gathered from the two official inquiries, as well as information on the construction and ammunition of Maine, the experts concluded that the damage caused to the ship was inconsistent with the external explosion of a mine. The most likely cause, they speculated, was spontaneous combustion of coal in the bunker next to the magazine.

Some historians have disputed the findings in Rickover's book, maintaining that failure to detect spontaneous combustion in the coal bunker was highly unlikely. Yet evidence of a mine remains thin and such theories are based primarily on conjecture. Despite the best efforts of experts and historians in investigating this complex and technical subject, a definitive explanation for the destruction of Maine remains elusive.

The USS Maine was an excuse for an imperialist war, that was unnecessary. 
 
This military revenge action for Cheonan, may be necessary, (probably)  but a second Korean War, that could result, is not in the best interest of the PACRIM, or us.
 
Indictment in the World Court and the issue of arrest warrants might be an actual effective means to deal with Kim Jong Il (and his associates) in a direct means that would affect HIM (and them), and make it possible for the successor that takes over administration of the DPRK wreckage to prosecute.    
 
H.
 
 
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DarthAmerica    @Warpig   4/25/2010 2:44:55 AM

Okay, so will someone who was so concerned about not rushing to judgment please let me know when it is finally okay to accept the conclusion that has been obvious all along, and acknowledge that the North Koreans topedoed the Cheonan?  Yet again, I assert that if the South Koreans have any balls and backbone, the F-15Ks will fly before this issue is settled.  At the barest minimum, utterly *all* interaction of any sort between North and South--foremost of all, any economic activity--should be halted.  America should join in, and together we should attempt to bring on board as much of the rest of the world as possible.

 
 
NO! Unacceptable. This needs to be kept in house and quiet. I know it goes against everything you stand for Warpig judging by your post. Responding violently is not the right way here in my opinion. Not yet. This is a war we do not need right now and make no mistake, anything more than a pinprick retaliation will cause open war! I think starving and ignoring them would be far more effective here. However, if violent retaliation is done, I'd suggest the NorK Musudan-Ri and other long range missile/nuclear related facilities be bombarded. All of this assumes the NorK are proven to be responsible. Still a big assumption based on public data.

-DA 
 
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warpig       4/25/2010 9:55:37 AM


NO! Unacceptable. This needs to be kept in house and quiet. I know it goes against everything you stand for Warpig judging by your post. Responding violently is not the right way here in my opinion. Not yet. This is a war we do not need right now and make no mistake, anything more than a pinprick retaliation will cause open war! I think starving and ignoring them would be far more effective here. However, if violent retaliation is done, I'd suggest the NorK Musudan-Ri and other long range missile/nuclear related facilities be bombarded. All of this assumes the NorK are proven to be responsible. Still a big assumption based on public data.



 
 
Hey, I agree with you, I have no desire to see America engaged in another Korean War (absolutely not, if we don't actually fight it to win, being defined as reunification of all of Korea).  Once again, I am talking about what the South Koreans ought to do, regardless of what America thinks would be most expedient--although I do agree that in the case of economic sanctions we should back the South's play, like I said.  DA, you of all people should be able to appreciate the difference between me saying what I would prefer South Korea to do and saying what I think South Koreans should think South Korea should do.
 
Sadly, not wanting us to fight in Korea just now seems to make me a fellow-traveller with the Hamilcar/DA/Kissinger/Brzezinski School of Pragmatism and Entangling International Geopolitical Structures ("Stability In Our Time!").  Of course, while such an association should be truly insulting to any American, DA likely would consider it an honor to be associated in any way with such filthy examples of people with American citizenship, while Hamilcar probably would tolerate it, since he agrees with the result in this case.
As for it still being a "big assumption" that North Korea was responsible... PUH-leeze!
 
 
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YelliChink       4/25/2010 10:15:35 AM
Unfortunately, the situation is that, even though none of us want a war, the war is coming to us.
 
Unless Kim Jong-mentally-il drops dead ASAP, but that is no guarantee.
 
Enjoy life while you can, because you won't like what's coming up soon.
 
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DarthAmerica    @Warpig   4/25/2010 10:30:28 AM






NO! Unacceptable. This needs to be kept in house and quiet. I know it goes against everything you stand for Warpig judging by your post. Responding violently is not the right way here in my opinion. Not yet. This is a war we do not need right now and make no mistake, anything more than a pinprick retaliation will cause open war! I think starving and ignoring them would be far more effective here. However, if violent retaliation is done, I'd suggest the NorK Musudan-Ri and other long range missile/nuclear related facilities be bombarded. All of this assumes the NorK are proven to be responsible. Still a big assumption based on public data.









 

 


Hey, I agree with you, I have no desire to see America engaged in another Korean War (absolutely not, if we don't actually fight it to win, being defined as reunification of all of Korea).  Once again, I am talking about what the South Koreans ought to do, regardless of what America thinks would be most expedient--although I do agree that in the case of economic sanctions we should back the South's play, like I said.  DA, you of all people should be able to appreciate the difference between me saying what I would prefer South Korea to do and saying what I think South Koreans should think South Korea should do.

 

Sadly, not wanting us to fight in Korea just now seems to make me a fellow-traveller with the Hamilcar/DA/Kissinger/Brzezinski School of Pragmatism and Entangling International Geopolitical Structures ("Stability In Our Time!").  Of course, while such an association should be truly insulting to any American, DA likely would consider it an honor to be associated in any way with such filthy examples of people with American citizenship, while Hamilcar probably would tolerate it, since he agrees with the result in this case.


As for it still being a "big assumption" that North Korea was responsible... PUH-leeze!

 

Warpig,
Your quote is incomplete. I said "big assumption based on public data".  That quote basically summarizes everything I've been writing here. The South Koreans probably have a very good idea how this happened and who's responsible. But the politics of this scenario and the pressure for some form on visible retaliation would be too great if in fact the NorKs could be conclusively shown to have done this. So the South Koreans are being very vague and floating every possible reason something like this could happen based on publicly available information. For instance, initially, it was suggested that the ammunition from the guns or a missile on the ship may have caused this. That bought
 
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Hamilcar    I am a pragmatist.    4/25/2010 10:32:30 AM
Hey, I agree with you, I have no desire to see America engaged in another Korean War (absolutely not, if we don't actually fight it to win, being defined as reunification of all of Korea).  Once again, I am talking about what the South Koreans ought to do, regardless of what America thinks would be most expedient--although I do agree that in the case of economic sanctions we should back the South's play, like I said.  DA, you of all people should be able to appreciate the difference between me saying what I would prefer South Korea to do and saying what I think South Koreans should think South Korea should do.
 
Sadly, not wanting us to fight in Korea just now seems to make me a fellow-traveler with the Hamilcar/Kissinger/Brzezinski School of Pragmatism and Entangling International Geopolitical Structures ("Stability In Our Time!").  Of course, while such an association should be truly insulting to any American, DA likely would consider it an honor to be associated in any way with such filthy examples of people with American citizenship, while Hamilcar probably would tolerate it, since he agrees with the result in this case.
 
As for it still being a "big assumption" that North Korea was responsible... PUH-leeze!^1
 
Just because I do not assess that a general war is in our interests, does not mean that I believe these bandits should escape the consequences of their actions. Do something symbolic, even if it is only legalistic, until you can do something actual.
 
Should the opening present itself to deal physically, uniquely and solely with those scum responsible, and the RoKs can seize it, then by all means seize it.
 
And do not confuse my "restraint" with a desire for "stability". I just don't like the actual estimated odds of success I see that this current crop of military incompetents, appeasers, political idiots, and moral weaklings in Washington can pull off a limited punitive operation in cooperation with the RoKs without starting a world war. 
 
H.
 
^1 Have I ever said that the DPRK was not responsible? I said that you need to be careful to determine the causes and trace the origins of the event.
 
 

 
 
 
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gf0012-aust       4/25/2010 6:43:15 PM

South Korea blames North for sunken ship

By North Asia correspondent Mark Willacy

Posted 17 minutes ago

South Korea's defence minister says a North Korean torpedo attack is the most likely cause of the sinking of one of his country's warships, which left at least 40 sailors dead.

Pyongyang has denied it was behind the sinking of the corvette, which sank after being torn in half by a massive blast last month.

Until now, South Korean officials have been reluctant to point the finger of blame north of the border.

But South Korean defence minister Kim Tae-Young says a large torpedo is the most likely cause of the sinking.

Military officials in Seoul have reportedly already told the president a 200 kilogram torpedo fired by a North Korean submarine was the cause of the explosion.

President Lee Myung-bak has vowed a "resolute" response to the disaster.



 
 
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Nichevo    Not holding my breath   4/25/2010 6:46:20 PM
Choices:
 
1)  covert direct action
 
2)  US leaves, let God sort 'em out
 
Why are we there again?  Someone remind me?
 
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VelocityVector       4/25/2010 8:55:57 PM

Why are we there again?  Someone remind me?

Because if America leaves evil will triumph good.  Because the two nations have cemented their respective futures together deeply.  Because if like me you happen to know people of Korean heritage you would never, ever let them down.  And yes I would place my life at grave risk for the Koreans I am fortunate to know; Korean nationals, not just expats, hold my housekey with permission to just drop in when they are in town.  Very few other ethnicities and nationalities would I trust this way.  0.02

v^2

 
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Nichevo       4/25/2010 11:36:13 PM
I'm ready to support South Korea, I'm not unsympathetic.  But my question is inspired by the fact that nothing seems likely to ever happen (what, shall we go and sink a DPRK corvette for them?), so what are our guys doing there?  It also seems like RoK can take care of business all by itself.  Our 28,000 men aren't going to win the war by themselves, in fact under the old tripwire concept their job is to die so the US feels obligated to act. 
 
But DPRK doesn't want anything to happen and RoK doesn't want anything to happen.  These skirmishes can apparently continue ad infinitum.  Neither government/regime is in actual danger.  Is it wrong to say that all we seem to be doing there is annoying people? I'm just not sure what good we're doing.
 
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