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Subject: ROKN Patrol Corvette sucken by DPRK torpedo boat
YelliChink    3/26/2010 12:10:07 PM
Just happened 2150 Korean local time. Chinese reports say that it was DPRK torpedo boat. The ROKN corvette sunk is probably a 1200t PCC. I can't read Korean so I am not sure which one exactly. At this moment, 59 out of 104 crew have been saved so far. Best wishes to the still missing ones and condolence to families of lost sailors.
 
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Reactive       3/30/2010 4:42:18 PM
"It is possible that a North Korean sea mine could have drifted into our area," Kim told a parliamentary meeting Monday, according to South Korean news agency Yonhap. "There are no South Korean mines near the Yellow Sea."

But he added that it was also possible that the ship struck a mine left over from the 1950s Korean war. The conflict, which took thousands of lives, ended in a truce in 1953, not with a peace treaty, so technically the two countries are still at war.

During his visit to Baengnyeong, which is just eight miles from North Korea and according to Lee's office within sight of a heavily armed military base, the president said South Korea had to maintain its military readiness, the AP reported.

"When we are strong, we can defend ourselves," Lee said. "If we are weak, we'll face more danger. South Korea's military should be strong."

Today Lee was told by South Korea's navy chief of staff, Kim Sung-chan, that there was no evidence of an explosion in the ship's ammunition dump, which had been put forward earlier as a possible cause of the sinking.

The navy chief also went further, according to South Korean media reports, by saying that the military had not ruled out a direct torpedo attack by the Pyongyang regime.
 
 
They're getting closer and closer to acknowledging that there's very few options to choose from, and nearly all of them are implausible given what even WE know.

 
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SantaClaws       3/30/2010 4:44:55 PM
Really? Owls flying over the yellow sea?

Your hint was wrong, uneducated and demonstrated a serious lack of understanding on the topic. 
 
And now it is apparently clear you have never served or were a fobbit at best. The only few incidents where people shot at unidentified targets (blind fired) resulted in either fratricide or civilian casualties (Apaches hitting Bradley's in Desert Storm, shooting of the Iranian airliner, etc.) ROEs are tight, especially concerning proper identification and even more so in an area with powder keg like tendencies such as Korea. It is not "common" to blind fire when it can trigger a war.
 
I can, however, cite hundreds of examples where soldiers spend an inordinate amount of time properly identifying targets before engaging.

Why do you start strawman arguments? GO read what I said about it. Moreover, you should probably be very careful to avoid further speculation about nocturnal birds. 



You are the one who is assuming about that. I already tried to give you a hint about things that could cause this.

 


That's probably because you've never been in combat or shot at. Why don't you go do some research on military incidents. Or listen to someone who's experienced it. Your choice if you want to continue to be bullheaded.




-DA 


 
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SantaClaws       3/30/2010 4:55:23 PM
Who knows? None of the on-board ship taken-off survivors mentioned cook-offs or underwater explosions after the one blast that they "heard"., Nobody mentioned being splashed by a water column  that would be raised by a keel-snapper either. All we know reported is "BOOM!", the ship's engines stopped, she rolled over to starboard, they looked aft, the stern was gone, and then she sank 
 
Anyone close enough to the water column, if it were a torpedo, would have in all likelyhood been killed instantly. Anyone on the deck would have been thrown off.
 
I admit that I'm not all that bright, but how can you make any sense out of this mush? We don't even know how long it took for the Cheonan to sink. I read three hours in one account and I said "huh?" With the stern blown off as one eyewitness reported? Then I read the captain report it took three minutes. Huh again? Using his cell phone to report to his high command his condition he said this? Before, during, or after abandon ship? Almost two fifths of the crew died. No survivor has said how. They, the survivors, KNOW, or at least they know the magnitude of what it took to kill so many of their shipmates.

My guess is that the stern sank almost instantly. The weight of the engines and being separated it would have taken water on quickly and gone to the bottom. usually when the ship is served this happens to the stern and they don't stay afloat for long. The bow of the ship obviously didn't sink. It probably fully capsized around 3 hours after the incident. As for the crew who died, most of them were probably in the stern and had no chance to escape.

 
   



 








 
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Hamilcar       3/30/2010 5:11:37 PM


Who knows? None of the on-board ship taken-off survivors mentioned cook-offs or underwater explosions after the one blast that they "heard"., Nobody mentioned being splashed by a water column  that would be raised by a keel-snapper either. All we know reported is "BOOM!", the ship's engines stopped, she rolled over to starboard, they looked aft, the stern was gone, and then she sank 

 

Anyone close enough to the water column, if it were a torpedo, would have in all likelyhood been killed instantly. Anyone on the deck would have been thrown off.


 

I admit that I'm not all that bright, but how can you make any sense out of this mush? We don't even know how long it took for the Cheonan to sink. I read three hours in one account and I said "huh?" With the stern blown off as one eyewitness reported? Then I read the captain report it took three minutes. Huh again? Using his cell phone to report to his high command his condition he said this? Before, during, or after abandon ship? Almost two fifths of the crew died. No survivor has said how. They, the survivors, KNOW, or at least they know the magnitude of what it took to kill so many of their shipmates.




My guess is that the stern sank almost instantly. The weight of the engines and being separated it would have taken water on quickly and gone to the bottom. usually when the ship is served this happens to the stern and they don't stay afloat for long. The bow of the ship obviously didn't sink. It probably fully capsized around 3 hours after the incident. As for the crew who died, most of them were probably in the stern and had no chance to escape.





 


   









 



















1. Portholes and windows. Those inside the pilot house could see the splash, or on the bridge looking aft after the boom they might see the same.
2. If they were on deck and thrown into the sea the splash still falls on them. They should know it as they fell..
3. I haven't been able to make any sense at all of the flotation times among the contradictory reports. I said I wasn't that bright.   
 
H.
 
 
 
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Reactive       3/30/2010 5:15:18 PM


Who knows? None of the on-board ship taken-off survivors mentioned cook-offs or underwater explosions after the one blast that they "heard"., Nobody mentioned being splashed by a water column  that would be raised by a keel-snapper either. All we know reported is "BOOM!", the ship's engines stopped, she rolled over to starboard, they looked aft, the stern was gone, and then she sank 

 

Anyone close enough to the water column, if it were a torpedo, would have in all likelyhood been killed instantly. Anyone on the deck would have been thrown off.

There would be huge overpressure whose fatal radius would be proportional to the size and depth of blast, you can see from the footage of tests just how much the ship lurches and just how violent that motion is, there would be no warning to brace so yes, anyone on deck could very easily be washed or simply knocked overboard, like being hit by an instant and gigantic freak wave. Anyone inside would have been thrown off their feet or violently knocked into nearby objects, the water column lasts a few seconds, my guess is that it would explain the "surprise" at looking round after a single large explosion and seeing the stern missing, as if by magic something has just sliced your ship in half. No reports (or sign of) of fires or secondaries, that is VERY important.

 

I admit that I'm not all that bright, but how can you make any sense out of this mush? We don't even know how long it took for the Cheonan to sink. I read three hours in one account and I said "huh?" With the stern blown off as one eyewitness reported? Then I read the captain report it took three minutes. Huh again? Using his cell phone to report to his high command his condition he said this? Before, during, or after abandon ship? Almost two fifths of the crew died. No survivor has said how. They, the survivors, KNOW, or at least they know the magnitude of what it took to kill so many of their shipmates.




My guess is that the stern sank almost instantly. The weight of the engines and being separated it would have taken water on quickly and gone to the bottom. usually when the ship is served this happens to the stern and they don't stay afloat for long. The bow of the ship obviously didn't sink. It probably fully capsized around 3 hours after the incident. As for the crew who died, most of them were probably in the stern and had no chance to escape.


Also what you have to figure is the proportion of bow and stern at the split the center of gravity would cause the stern to turn towards the split (and sink)  far quicker than the longer, lighter bow/midsection.. Both would list as they took on water and in any case a lurch to the side could indicate that the detonation did not happen directly under the centerline. It's a terrible terrible way to go, for all concerned, and I think that is why this is such a hugely important singular event, that is getting FAR less coverage in the western press than its potential implications warrant.


 
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SantaClaws       3/30/2010 5:22:04 PM
1. You can see from the posted pictures of the torpedoed ship what kind of damage it does to the super structure. Anyone near that was probably killed, assuming a torpedo did hit the Chonan.
 
2. Not if you are knocked unconscious/drown. Remember, the force was large enough to break the ship in half. The pressure wave alone has enough energy to kill people. Think about it like being in front of an M1A2 when it fires it's main gun. THat will kill anyone standing near it. If it was a torpedo, you're talking a lot more energy.
 
3. That's my guess from what I can make sense of from the reports. The stern sank instantly but the bow took 3 hours to capsize, which is probably how the other 56 or so people survived.
 
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Reactive       3/30/2010 5:33:09 PM
youtube.com/watch?v=dbFw3PHpCHU&feature=PlayList&p=42C7AAF9CEBB4D8C&index=39
 
As you can see from this clip, not all water explosions are vast, this is a heavy torpedo, it could have been lighter, deeper and still done the job on a 1200 tonne vessel. Not necesarily a vast cloud of water but a big overpressure and an incredibly violent motion for which no one would have been prepared.
 
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Hamilcar    Confusion here:   3/30/2010 5:45:39 PM
 
quote:
 
More Questions Raised Than Answered Over Sunken Shiphttp://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/img/nation/100328_p02_more450.jpg" alt="click" border="0" width="681" height="337" />

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/img/nation/100328_p02_more.jpg" align="right" hspace="5" alt="" />
By Lee Tae-hoon
Staff Reporter

As hopes are dimming over the rescue of 46 missing sailors, a host of questions have been raised over the mysterious explosion that caused the 1,200-ton Navy ship Cheonan to break in half Friday night.


The captain, Commander Choi Won-il, said the vessel broke in two five minutes after the blast, as he was assessing the situation.


The Joint Chiefs of Staff (JCS) said 60 percent of the entire ship was underwater 20 minutes after the explosion as water rushed into the body.


In this regard, Minister of National Defense Kim Tae-young said that Choi was probably mistaken as a Thermal Observation Device would have given him the wrong information, indicating that the ship was split in half before sinking.


Questions have also been raised why no new survivors, nor any bodies, have been found since 58 of the ship's 104 crew members were rescued Friday night.


Observers said fierce waves have hampered efforts to find more survivors and most of the missing personnel would have been trapped inside their rapidly sinking vessel, which consists of more than 100 compartments.


They pointed out that the lack of escape drills and the timing of the incident are attributable to the low-survival rate.


``Unless you are in Special Forces, most crewmen participate in an escape drill once or twice a year,'' a Navy officer said on condition of anonymity. ``It also appears that they panicked as the entire ship shook after the explosion, when they were either resting or preparing to go to bed.''


Another lingering question is why a nearby patrol ship fired a warning shot toward the North soon after the tragic sinking.


In this regard, the JSC said one of their ships had fired on a radar contact that turned out to be a flock of birds.


Some military experts, however, point out that the chance of firing warning shots at a flock of birds is unlikely, as the Navy's patrol ships are equipped with sophisticated radar devices.


Meanwhile, military officials were narrowing down the possibility to the vessel's collision with a rock, a torpedo attack from outside forces, including North Korea, or an internal explosion due to the missiles and explosives the ship was carrying.


The Navy plans to salvage the vessel for inspection to determine what caused the incident, a process that may take at least 20 days, officials said.


Experts say if the blast took place within the vessel, the steel of the hull should be bent outward; If a hole was made due to an external force or impact, the steel of the hull should be bent inward.


The ship, first deployed in 1989, was equipped with missiles and torpedoes, according to officials.


 
===========================================================
The questions I raise here are the ones I underlined in the article.
 
1. One warning shot from another Pohong?
2. The captain says the ship was in one piece after the explosion and then tore in two five minutes later, so he was conscious and he looked aft.
3. He is contradicted by his own crew survivors in other reports we have cited here, and by a prominent politician here, as to the breakup as he describes it.
4. Something is WRONG here. 
 
H.


 
 
 
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Reactive       3/30/2010 6:23:25 PM

The questions I raise here are the ones I underlined in the article.

 

1. One warning shot from another Pohong?

This is odd, completely impossible for us to know what/when/for how long they were firing, it doesn't make sense at all but it points (loosely, and this is going beyond the evidence) to there being a return which promptly vanished, I'll refrain from making suggestions as there is no evidence.

2. The captain says the ship was in one piece after the explosion and then tore in two five minutes later, so he was conscious and he looked aft.

And if they could see the stern of the ship clearly then there wasn't any smoke obscuring it, which I think is largely established since it's the one thing that is always mentioned by crew, heat, fire, smoke.
 
3. He is contradicted by his own crew survivors in other reports we have cited here, and by a prominent politician here, as to the breakup as he describes it.

Which possibly suggests he was under pressure to give an account of events from which no one could make any deductions, my impression is that the South Korean Govt is trying to media-manage this story as best it can, presumably while it gains a consensus of what to do should the "worst case" be realised.
 
 
4. Something is WRONG here. 

Very wrong indeed, it's not a wayward mine, i'm sure of it.
 

H.
 
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YelliChink       3/30/2010 7:35:10 PM
On how ROKS Cheonan broke in two:
 
From the way most sailors and officers survived from the front part of the ship, it seems to me that this explosion didn't happen under the engine room. The more likely scenario is an underwater explosion near rudder/propeller area. The bubble effect shoot the stern up and than drag it down violently, cause the whole ship to wobble.
 
The rest of the ship, especially the center part between the bridge to the engine room, which happen to be the heaviest and most rigid part of a ship, was trembled by the explosion, but didn't suffer from the bubble effect. Thus the ship broke up at engine room.
 
My $0.02.
 
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