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Subject: Indonesia brainwashed by muslims
sikhwarrior    2/15/2004 8:06:04 PM
I want to know how indonesia become muslims. Were they forced, threatened to be killed
 
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PuckaMan    RE:Indonesia brainwashed by muslims    3/8/2004 6:50:18 AM
Not sure exactly, I seem to recall that Trading routes and missionaries from India-Pakistan etc. worked very hard. Weather they were threatened or not, I cannot say. Like all religions, Christianty, Hinduism, Judaism, etc. there are some 'believers' who take it a bit far, after all, we're right, everyone else is wrong, correct? What I can say is that being the largest Muslim nation should not infer that they are the same as Saudi Arabia or Iran - Indonesia is made up collectively hundreds of ethnic minorities, and the average Indonesian tends to follow traditional cultural politics and practices, Islam is secondary in most repects. What is important is not to lump all Islamic Nations together - Religion and Cultures are seperate things, which, for the most part, complement/exaggerate each other. Nationalism, despite all the radical warmongering (bin Laden and his ilk) is still largely the dominant theme for the majority of Muslim nations, and Indonesia is by no means an exception. Pucka
 
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Godofgamblers    RE:Indonesia brainwashed by muslims    1/31/2005 9:03:41 PM
good answer, Pucka. there is no written history and many mysteries remain. the giant buddhist temple in borobudur for example. no written records of a buddhist culture exist: yet there is a temple the size of a small mountain in the jungle! aceh though was influenced by arabs and thus are very traditional. the rest of indonesia was influenced by indians and so are moderate.
 
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Godofgamblers    sikhwarrior   1/31/2005 9:06:58 PM
i am interested in sikhism but have never met a sikh. i have seen some good sites on the net which give a good introduction to sikhism. i would like to go to india one day and would like to go to a place where i can see sikh culture. sikhs are in the north, aren't they? in punjab? which city would be best to see?
 
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PeregrinePike    RE:sikhwarrior   4/15/2005 12:53:22 PM
GoG, First visit to the Indonesia site for me. I invariably ended on a posting by a fellow Indian (as much as I dislike him). One of the dirty secrets among us Indians is that we are all obssessed with geneology, and none more so than those in the high-human-interaction regions (like Punjab). So people invariably try to ferret out your past with questions on how you came to adopt such and such practices. I suspect the long demised sikhwarrior was doing the same with this question. Indians, and particularly Sikhs had some pretty gruesome experiences with Arabs Turks and Afghans... who happened to be Muslims (And I invariably end up pointing out the headache the ancestors of Sikhs - Huns and Scythians caused for the rest of the world). So if you are not a Turk or an Afghan, his diatribe is just unfortunate on you guys. Expect the same from him if you were an unfortunate Egyptian or a Mede in the Persian Empire 3000 years back ;-) --------------------------------------- About the Sikhs, I find it impossible to believe that you will ever find a neutral link on the Sikhs. They have a tremendous capacity to inflame anyone, just as their Pak cousins ;-) I guess you know they began as a progressive sect trying to fuse Hinduism and Islam... unlike us Hindus they were supposed to give up on caste, and unlike Muslims they were supposed to be tolerant -- both easy to do in Punjab IMO... Hindus in Punjab never practised caste-system in the way us Southerners and Easterners did; and its easy to be tolerant when your Mughal overlord practises Mongol shamanism and likes you more than his fellow Muslims for fighting wars and paying taxes. They have a very simplified, monothesistic religion... more flexible than Islam in doctrine, and more rigid than Hinduism in theory. They had 10 religious leaders "gurus", basically very smart religious evangelists. The last but one guru just happened to end up against the most Muslim and most Turk-Afghan of all the Mughals - Aurangazeb. He was found to be offensive, and tortured to death. After that they institutionalized everything from their true ancestry, and went on a perpetual "jihad". To understand them, you need to know about their people. In Punjab (land of 5 rivers that makes up Indus) the dominant ethnic group is the Jats (Scythians and Huns) - the Hindus among them are called Jats, Sikhs the Sikhs, and Muslims the Punjabi Muslims. Hindus are the minority there, with Muslims being the plurality and Sikhs comming second. Following the ancient precepts that all free-holders of land grow uncut beard (like their cousins in Russian boyars and Afghan amirs), be prepared for war, and hate everyone who is not you. They took all that up and institutionalized it. The last of the "gurus", Arjan Singh, decreed that every Sikh be prepared for war - and put into motion some very field worthy and field liablity practices. for example: the uncut hair and turban make very good helmets, but also hold lice and such. The five "Ks" are part of that... basically what you will carry to battle: combs, clean underwear, daggers, fighting bracelets and the natural helmet ;-) After Aurangzeb died, and a succession of weaker fellows came into power, Sikhs became stronger and stronger. But not quite as strong as us Marathas. We reached Delhi just after Nadir Shah of Persia had raided it, and his Afghan killer and successor -Ahmed Shah Abdali launched another raid on Delhi. We met in Panipat, with Sikhs as our allies... we lost and went back home. But the Sikhs were more pugnacious and harrassed the Afghans enough to send them into retreat and to win back most of the loot (which they promptly kept). They were then united under Ranjit Singh as a political unit for some time, but after his death found out that the Brits were going to put India into peace. So they figured that by joining the Brits they could continue to fight in China, Africa, France, Iraq and most pleasingly in A'stan. After the end of the Raj again they wanted an independent state, but couldnt make get enough people to make it happen. When not being killed by Japs, Germans and Afghans, they were being killed by Hindus and Muslims. So they joined up with Hindus in killing Muslims for a while, then in 1980's they joined up with Muslims to kill Hindus, and then just stopped for no good reason -- not even Socrates could reason with a Scythian, remember? Their most important place is Golden Temple, Amritsar in India. And their religion is very Punjab centered... though the center of gravity is also being distributed to Manchester, Sacarmento, and Ottawa. Cant really imagine why a non-Punjabi would be interested in it at all... though I did have a rebellious uncle who grew the beard, carried the dagger and the fighting bracelet and joined up with a Sikh street gang that baptised him too. My grandmother finally got him to see the errors of his ways with a chapati roller pin ;-)
 
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Godofgamblers    RE:sikhwarrior WARRIORS AND ROLLING PINS   4/16/2005 4:35:44 AM
PP, good to see you, and as usual, i enjoyed reading your post. however, i have decided to retreat to the "armies of the world" thread, as it simply takes up too much time, laboriously flipp[ing back and forth among the various threads. this indo thread, in particular, seems somewhat dead or at least abandoned. there are a couple good sikh sites that i found, but others are a bit antagonistic, speaking in hushed tones of the fianl battle betwwen sikhs and muslims like some sort of long awaited ragnorak. anyway, i hope to continue my research on sikhs and sikhism. very interesting guys and very rough warriors. if you're uncle was tamed by a chapati rolling pin, peraps it wasn't his calling after all:)
 
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Godofgamblers    PP, read this   4/16/2005 5:03:27 AM
Sikhs & 12'o Clock Funda The Truth Behind it !!!!!!!!!! I was standing at jalandhar station when my attention went towards a Sikh youth standing near me wearing a Black turban having a long beard and wearing a kirpan over his shirt looking similar to a terrorist. After a while, one local train arrived, which was totally packed. The Sikh youth tried to alight the train but failed to do so. Just then a voice was heard from the back coach 'Sardarji Barah Baj gaye' (Sir it's 12 o'clock!) The Sikh youth looked over at that voice maker who was a young Mischievous type of person and instead of showing any anger made a smile towards him. The smile made was so enigmatic that it seemed as if some type of truth lies behind it. Not able to resist my temptation, I walked towards him and asked why did he smile at that person who teased him. The Sikh youth replied, 'He was not teasing me but was asking for my Help'. I was surprised with these words and he told me that there was a big history behind that which one should know. I was eager to know the History and the Sikh youth narrated: During 17th Century, when Hindustan was ruled by Mughals, all the Hindu people were humiliated and were treated like animals. Mughals treated the Hindu women as there own property and were forcing all Hindus to accept Islam and even used to kill the people if they were refusing to accept.That time, our ninth Guru, Sri Guru Teg Bahadarji came forward,in response to a request of some Kashmir Pandits to fight against all these cruel activities. Guruji told the Mughal emperor that if he could succeed in converting him to Islam, all the Hindus would accept the same. But, if he failed, he should stop all those activities . The Mughal emperor happily agreed to that but even after lots of torture to Guruji and his fellow members he failed to convert him to Islam and Guruji along with his other four fellow members, were tortured and sacrificed their lives in Chandni Chowk. Since the Mughals were unable to convert them to Islam they were assassinated. Thus Guruji sacrificed his life for the protection of Hindu religion. Can anybody lay down his life and that too for the protection of another religion? This is the reason he is still remembered as "Hind Ki Chaddar", shield of India. For the sake of whom he had sacrificed his life, none of the them came forward to lift his body, fearing that they would also be assassinated Seeing this incident our 10th Guruji, Sri Guru Gobind Singhji (Son of Guru Teg Bahadarji) founder of khalsa made a resolution that he would convert his followers to such human beings who would not be able to hide themselves and could be easily located in thousands. At the start, the Sikhs were very few in numbers as they were fighting against the Mughal emperors. At that time, Nadir Shah raided Delhi in the year 1739 and looted Hindustan and was carrying lot of Hindustan treasures and nearly 2200 Hindu women along with him. The news spread like a fire and was heard by Sardar Jassa Singh who was the Commander of the Sikh army at that time. He decided to attack Nadir Shah's Kafila on the same midnight. He did so and rescued all the Hindu women and they were safely sent to their homes. It didn't happen only once but thereafter whenever any Abdaalis or Iranis had attacked and looted Hindustan and were trying to carry the treasures and Hindu women along with them for selling them in Abdal markets, the Sikh army although fewer in numbers but were brave hearted and attacked them at midnight,12 O'clock and rescued women. After that time when there occurred a similar incidence, people started to contact the Sikh army for their help and Sikhs used to attack the raider's at Midnight, 12 O'clock. Nowadays, these "smart people" and some Sikh enemies who are afraid of Sikhs, have spread these words that at 12 O'clock, the Sikhs go out of their senses. This historic fact was the reason which made me smile over that person as I thought that his Mother or Sister would be in trouble and wants my help and was reminding me by saying off 'Sardarji Barah Baj Gaye' Plz do forward this mail to all ur friends so they can know about sikh history & its a humble appeal PLEASE dont make fun of RELIGIONS ! as every religion is as pure as urs. "Its easy to joke on a Sardar, but It's too difficult to be a Sardar"
 
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PeregrinePike    RE:sikhwarrior WARRIORS AND ROLLING PINS   4/16/2005 12:21:48 PM
"if you're uncle was tamed by a chapati rolling pin, peraps it wasn't his calling after all:)" -- Ha, ha... but the thing is my uncle was the biggest kid in the family, and quite violent at that. So it was natural for him to fall in with the street gangs. But that was in the city. So, worried about the straying influences of the city, my grandma took him back to the small town we come from. There arent any street gangs there, and it was the peaceful life that finally broke him - not really the rolling pins literally... its just a way of saying how the domestic life gets to you after a while ;-)
 
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PeregrinePike    RE:PP, read this   4/16/2005 12:32:09 PM
"Sardarji" actually translates to "chief"... every man among them calls himself a chief. Which is in a way better than the kshatriyas among us who call themselves "Rajputs"... which is "princes"; or some Brahmins like my mother's family where they count lineage from gods ;-) Generally in peace-time their arrogance is obnoxious... which is why we say gods made Pathans and Punjabis for each other. A more overtly arrogant bunch of Asians you will be hard pressed to find, and they dont mind using their larger physique to press it (including on the few Japanese they came across in WWII... which goes a long way to put it in context for an Indonesian). Ita almost like they are Asian Boers. But the fact remains that they make excellent soldiers on the whole, and dont have the internal arrogance many others do. If I were an officer in the Indian Army and had to command troops, my first choice would ofcourse be my relative Marathas and Gurkhas... but beyond that its the Sikhs for any job (especially like dealing with the Pathans). Of course with my mother and sister either in the high Maratha hills or under the new Missile Defense Program (SDI), I hardly rely(ied) on the Sikhs for protection... and consequently my opinion on their historic contributions is quite limited.
 
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PeregrinePike    RE:PP, read this   4/16/2005 7:55:00 PM
Actually, about choosing Maratha, Gurkha or Sikh soldiers as an officer... no, not really. I wouldnt chose them. They are much too... how do I put it, conventional for me ;-) What I would most likely do is get a bunch of trust-worthy Baluchis from across the Pak border. They can fight pretty well, but more importantly they can run very well without much loses... having perfected it into an art form (they do it with such grace that it hardly sullies their fighting reputation) -- which is one of the reasons they arent recruited by Pak Army.
 
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PeregrinePike    RE:sikhwarrior   4/18/2005 10:26:36 AM
One last thing for the Sikhs' credit: The Sikh Regiment is supposedly the most decorated regiment in the British Commonwealth according to globalsecurity.... I am not sure how they came to the conclusion... but its constituent battalions are pretty old, and probably have a lot of decorations to their credit (though how do they beat the Royal Scots I dont know). Also take it with a pinch of salt that Indian Infantry regiments are much larger than the traditional British ones, and will have much more constituent battalions.
 
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