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Subject: How exactly do you counter stealth?
-Gatecrasher-    7/8/2004 3:26:18 PM
If there is a way to coutner it at all, what is the technology behind it?
 
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gf0012-aust    Over the Horizon Radar - US and Aust - Addendum   8/2/2004 9:37:38 PM
The other issue is that the JORN system has detected two different types of stealth platformss - the stinkbug and the B2 use different concepts to reduce their signature - and that shows a different level of capability. Not all stealth signature reduction concepts are similar and its critical to be able to deliver across "platforms".
 
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Galderio    RE:How exactly do you counter stealth?   8/24/2004 9:49:39 AM
OHR have long range but have bad precision, how could they know their were trancking a stealth bomber at the other side of the world?
 
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wagner95696    RE:How exactly do you counter stealth?   8/25/2004 12:11:15 AM
The easiest way to destroy stealth is while they are still on the ground. Also, stealth aircraft briefly become visible at the moment they launch their weapons. So far stealth aircraft are all subsonic. I wonder if it would be possible to use an acoustic homer that when launched into the general proximity could detect the sound and home on that?
 
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giblets    RE:How exactly do you counter stealth?   9/16/2004 10:53:34 AM
The question should look at how stealth works, the F-117, works by reducing the reflection,and then bouncing it off in odd directions,t eh B2 mainly by reduction in signature. However, they both still give a signatire, about the size of a bird. All you needs is good detection,a nd a good computer, most radars will probably ignore radar returns below a certain size, mainly due to thinks like birds and 'clutter'. If your computer is fast enough to look at all these birds etc, and find one doing 400mph, then you are sorted. In short you need more powerful, and more sensitive radars that have big fast computers attached.
 
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displacedjim    RE:How exactly do you counter stealth?   9/16/2004 12:04:52 PM
Yes, but that's not easily or cheaply done. I'm not a radar analyst, but I know something about it, and the following may contain some errors but be basically correct (I hope). I'm not including everything, just enough to draw the picture of early warning detection of aircraft. A radar sends out and receives energy in a series of pulses. Beamwidth and pulsewidth will dictate resolution--the size of a cell in space that can be determined to either contain a target or not (narrow beamwidth and short pulses equals a small cell). For each antenna sweep the radar produces a bunch of signals that indicate which cells were occupied at that time, based on whether enough signal return came back to the antenna to be detected by the radar receiver. However, along with getting some returns from aircraft, you get returns from mountains, clouds, birds, and nothing (i.e., system noise). These returns are just returns. The radar doesn't know what they are, it just knows it received energy that appears to have been reflected off of things in particular cells. If every return was forwarded for processing, yes you'd need a lot more computer power. As a compromise, a filter is used to eliminate the weakest ones, based on the assumption they are noise, birds, clouds, etc. Whats left of the cell returns (there's still other processing, which I think sometimes includes somewhere in this process an attempt to detect relatively stationary targets by eliminating the returns from cells that are constantly giving a return, etc., but let's move on) are forwarded as plots. The radar still doesn't know what they are, just that they are the cells with stronger returns. Now the plots must be correlated with previous plots in order to detect if it's an aircraft. This seems to me to be almost as much an art as a science. I don't feel like trying to go into detail, but essentially all the plots are compared to all the other plots within a certain distance and using predictive algorithms some plots are associated with others and are assigned as tracks. Once a track is formed, air defenses can now react. Air defenses engage tracks, not plots. Once a track is formed, then the correlation continues with each new set of received plots, and based on predictions of heading, speed and (if known) altitude, and changes in them, the new plots are matched up where possible with the known tracks. Meanwhile faded tracks are dropped and new tracks are formed. If you reduce your noise gate level low enough to include the tiny returns from the stealth aircraft, you also include a zillion other returns, and it quickly makes for a lot more plots, which quickly makes for a lot more computation for forming tracks. That's something that is way beyond the capabilities of most of the air surveillance equipment currently in use around the world. And that's just to detect it. After that comes trying to engage it. Displacedjim
 
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Biffa    Type 42s in GW1   9/17/2004 3:51:45 PM
i remember reading an article about a british type 42 destroyer detecting a F117 in GW1, something to to with its decades old radar. also i have read that radars with frequency modulation and target motion analasis find it easier to track stealth.
 
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ambush    RE:Type 42s in GW1   9/17/2004 4:12:02 PM
Ihave also heard that cell pohone frequencies have some use in stealth detection. From what I have been able to gather the Type 42s and cell phone stuff made general detection possible but not a good enough fix for a target lock on. In ohter words good enough for early waring but not weapons targeting. THis is just aother military cycle like Tanks and Anti-tank weapons for each measure ther eis another countermeasure. Tanks force a likely opponent to invest resources in anti-tank measures, stealth forces and enemy to invest in mesures to counter it. Subs mean an ASW effort.
 
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wagner95696    RE:Type 42s in GW1   9/17/2004 5:31:08 PM
The basic principle is the same as the original radars. They used a bi-static system where the transmitters and receivers were separate. Like the old fashioned door alarms that projected a light beam from one side of the doorway to a light sensor on the other that signaled when someone passes. They actually don't detect the target itself, they detect the 'shadow' of the target. When the sensor fails to detect the light beam it assumes that something is passing. By using ordinary radio, telephone, and cell pone transmissions as the illuminators one can detect when something passes between their position and the transmission source. A computer can calculate by triangulation the location. A good example is when one looks into the night sky and sees the silhouette of a bird or aircraft passing across the face of the moon. We are not really seeing the target, only its shadow. As soon as the backlight disappears we lose track. The earth is constantly bombarded by various forms of extraterrestrial radiation. I have wondered if any of them could provide a consistent enough 'backlight' so that detectors aimed at the sky would be triggered by the passage of an intervening object.
 
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Maximillian    RE:How exactly do you counter stealth?   10/16/2005 11:27:30 AM
The easiest way to destroy stealth is while they are still on the ground And that's one reason the USAF keeps the B-2s safely stowed in Kansas, and is so "timid" with thier operational deployment. And forget forward basing, and reaction to targets of opportunity. M
 
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soopakrn    RE:How exactly do you counter stealth?   11/15/2005 3:47:26 AM
I believe that the British have already figured out a way to detect stealth bombers and fighters.
 
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