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Subject: Counter fire systems and land-based CIWS
doggtag    10/1/2007 8:20:28 PM
Next fad for top-tier nations, or the next logical step in the weapon/counter weapon cycle? This is something I've been scoping out for some time now, and I decided to make a go at putting together some sort of collection of the latest technological wonders that our engineers are tinkering around with. With the advent of more and more precision weapons, let alone the current crop of unguided artillery, rockets, and mortars fired off in the target's general direction, both precision inbound fire and unguided stuff (which for all intents and purposes the latter is more nuisance nowadays than anything, in theaters such as Iraq and Afghanistan where adversary forces have very little coordinated fire support to use against us, in the end doing little more than harassment even if damage is being done and lives are being lost... but it's not as if we're coming under massed artillery strikes with shells, rockets, and mortar bombs coming inbound by the dozens or hundreds on a daily basis...) ..(whew!), anyhow, there seems to be gaining interest, at least in western circles (read: "NATO countries") in adopting a nearly-quarter-century-old naval concept, the CIWS, or Close In Weapon System (used on ships to defeat anti-ship missiles primarily), to be utilized as land-based deterrent against similar threats to land forces. To follow are a number of links to pdf's (unfortunately, not everyone posts everything up in html format) and various news articles on some of the latest land-based CIWS systems, either fielded or projected near-term or a few more years down the road....
 
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doggtag    C-RAM, Counter Rocket, Artillery, and Mortar   10/1/2007 8:22:18 PM
 
Coming from NDIA,
the C-RAM is a land variant of the now-standard Phalanx 20mm gun system.
 
 
 
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doggtag    ABRAHAM,    10/1/2007 8:24:52 PM
 
This basically appears destined to be (if it works and perks enough customer interest) the land-based equivalent of the SeaRAM system, more or less.
Effectively, an anti-missile system that should be good for not just missiles, but other artillery threats and also aircraft.
 
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doggtag    a case for 50mm guns   10/1/2007 8:33:38 PM
Here are a couple of pdfs (yes, more NDIA stuff) on attempts to develop shell guidance capabilities into a 50mm Bushmaster cannon system (as far as the pdfs dictate, a twin-barrel 50mm system, check out the last page on this http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2007gun_missile/GMTuePM2/BrislinPresentation.pdf
 
Some of the info here is redundant from earlier pdfs, but interesting info nontheless. http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2007gun_missile/GMWedPM2/GeswenderPresentation.pdf
Some of the pages express views as to what caliber would make the best CIWS system: how small a shell can we package guidance into.
 
Note that this is all 2007 stuff.
Here's a nice breakdown from 2001, of attempts to incorporate shell guidance into the 40mm CTA gun: http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2001gun/Leishman.pdf
 
And finally, one of the most, if perhaps not the most, intriguing developments centers around Raytheon's announcements of a laser-based CIWS, mounted upon a Phalanx chassis no less.
This one was posted up a few weeks ago by myself ( http://www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/7-1876.aspx  (
 
...and just recently was posted up on the Australia boards: http://www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/512-40216.aspx
 
Y'all chime in with any additions (Millennium Gun, Bofors 40 & 57mm w/3P fuze, etc...
 
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DarthAmerica       10/1/2007 8:43:28 PM
Weapons like MTHEL and Vigilant Eagle is what it will come down to. They offer instant results, deep magazines and they don't fall back to earth. As an interm solution, I like the C-RAM though. Amazing machine.
 
-DA
 
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doggtag    a case for 50mm guns   10/1/2007 8:50:42 PM
Seeing as there is obviously some ongoing development around 50mm weapons (Bushmaster III Chain Gun variant, but Rheinmetall Rh503 should suffice),
the possibilities here become impressive.
 
We've already talked of using static defense turrets (built around the 35mm Millennium Gun).
 
But judging by the twin-barrel 50mm monster in one of the above pdfs, I see little reason why this looks-most-promising system also wouldn't work well enough in the static role (complete with MANPADS/SHORADS).
 
As airburst ammunition gains more headway in its development, the potential then is there that more and more armies will look to field larger caliber autocannon on many of their AFVs (>25mm), not just to exploit programmable airburst technologies, but also these newest developments in packaging command guidance capabilities into the shells, as well their obvious edge over smaller calibers (<30mm) in defeating other surface targets. 
 
The biggest frown on using them in AFVs though is that the larger ammo equates to fewer onboard rounds.
 
In the case of the one 50mm concept mounted on an MLRS chassis (see above pdf again), we can overcome ammo supply simply by building a large turret (very large indeed, judging by the MLRS chassis under it!).
 
...but is there any reason a single 50mm gun couldn't be installed, whilst maintaining high angle fire capability, into infantry-assisting  AFVs, such as the Bradley or Warrior?
The benefits are obvious: greater HE punch than any current 20-40mm guns currently integrated into AFV turrets,
the ability to steer shells not only into aircraft but also to offer a limited CLOS (Command to Line Of Sight) engagement capability versus moving targets.
There is also the potential growth in a dedicated anti-armor round (KE dart) : the potential should be there to even surpass the 40mm CTA gun and its suggested 150mm @ 1500m penetration/range performance.
Certainly it's still no match for MBTs (maybe, the 200rpm per barrel might actually inflict considerable damage if the downrange dispersion is kept to a minimum (a 50mm guided shell incorporating a KE element inside is still probably several years away (think miniaturized MRM-KE).
 
There's been ongoing debate here at SP about the pluses and minuses of fixed emplacement weapons offering protection around FOBs, fire bases, and other points.
 
These latest weapons systems, with their hoped-for capabilities, certainly could ease a lot of concern on the troops.
Even coming under fire intermittently only a few times a day might go easier on them if they know they've got such a capable sentry making sure those random attacks don't get thru.
 
 
 
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doggtag       10/1/2007 8:56:19 PM

Weapons like MTHEL and Vigilant Eagle is what it will come down to. They offer instant results, deep magazines and they don't fall back to earth. As an interm solution, I like the C-RAM though. Amazing machine.

 

-DA


What I like about is the fact they're using HEI rounds, with a built-in self destruct mechanism, rather than the APDS tungsten slugs of the naval variant: the 20mm rounds, after detonation, aren't as dangerous downrage.
The laser system certainly is nice, and is sure to herald in (no offense, Herald1234!) a new era of warfare.
Providing the bugs and kins are ironed out, this weapon is perhaps the best solution for CIWS.
But, if we want the ability to utilize a given system when there is no incoming threat, a projectile weapon is still the best candidate there,
as it's doubtful that any laser capable of being mounted into a given AFV will have the destructive power necessary to defeat a majority of surface targets (heavy AFVs, building, fortifications, etc), at least not for the foreseeable future (2025 or later, perhaps).
 
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reefdiver       10/2/2007 11:25:25 AM
How effective are these guns in the C-RAM mode?  As I read things, insurgents in Iraq generally can only fire off a couple of rounds or rockets before having to scoot.  This should mean a minimal # of incoming rounds for C-RAM to target.  A number of blogs have mentioned the C-RAM at Camp Victory as being installed late 2006 yet Camp Victory was hit by a (relatively slow and larger than most mortars) 240mm Iranian made rocket just recently. 
 
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doggtag       10/2/2007 2:56:32 PM
Just how big is Camp Victory?
 
I'd be willing to bet one, or a combination of, several things:
 
- C-RAM in question couldn't cover the vector from whence the rocket came (obstructions in its field of fire, etc).
- C-RAM in question just so happened to be powered down for maintenance or other system checks.
- C-RAM in question was out of ammo (magazine of Phalanx mount barely holds 1000 rounds between the ammo drum and feed chute leading to the gun breech).
- C-RAM in question had limitations imposed upon its firing arcs (see #1), as to somebody who would've been downrange from a given vector didn't want the 20mm shrapnel falling on their heads.
- somebody high enough up in Camp Victory got enough complaints about its operational noise, or didn't like it themselves. "Turn that damn thing off, some of us are trying to get what little precious sleep we can!"
- somebody high enough up in the area chain of command just doesn't have the faith in it, and dictated it would only operate at certain times. Or they decided its power consumption wasn't worth the expenditure, and the electrical power output was offloaded elsewhere to someone's power-hungry contonement area for TVs, microwaves, AC, etc.
 
Sarcasm aside, if it didn't function as expected for whatever reason, I'm sure the engineers are all over it.
Or it just wasn't turned on at the time.
If it operates in a fully automatic mode like Phalanx,
then I bet the local jet jocks, helo pilots, and friendly outbound artillery providers might have raised enough safety concerns about it to justify not running it at at all.
 
So many variables...
 
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