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Subject: UK Rapier/Seawolf replacement
streaky bacon    9/19/2007 5:10:30 AM
On Richard Beedalls Navy Matters website, in the Future Surface Combatant section there is reference to MBDA Uk working on the Common Anti-Air modular missile to replace the Rapier and Seawolf! Does anyone have any information of what the system might be like? I assume it will be based on a Vertical Launched Asraam missile! Interesting that instead of the ASTER 15 missile the UK as choosen to look at other options????? Maybe Aster is not all it's cracked up to be????
 
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doggtag    just out of curiosity...   10/18/2007 7:45:42 AM
...if I can interrupt the two of you for a moment (deep breaths before retaliations, guys!)
judging by Aster's 7" (~18cm) main body diameter vs ESSM's 10" main diameter (at the motor section),
do either of you feel ESSM would've been a better PAAMS candidate simply for the fact that engineering logic dictates the 10" body has more growth potential (range, payload, etc) ?
 
As I've repeated numerous times elsewhere, Aster is basically never going to be any more capable than any surface-launched AMRAAM proposal (AIM-120 also a 7" diameter main body).
And that's giving Aster a lofty goal to measure up to (AMRAAM), let alone anything the MICA can/can't do or can/can't grow into.
 
I myself like ESSM because, aside from the obvious tech growth potential, it allows a larger throw weight (warhead) to a greater distance.
Basically, I envision it to give smaller vessels who can't handle the full size SM MRs and ERs the equivalence of a "Standard Jr", regardless of those posters who've expressed their opinion that Standard uses some tired & outdated aerodynamic design.
Against aircraft that, due to the human pilot, cannot sustain extended 9G+ maneuvering, even the Standard's strakes-and-tailfins design is plenty adequate.
The design must have some merit, because that's exactly what ESSM uses, looking, as I mentioned, like a scaled-down Standard.
That and the tail-mounted TVC nozzle should more than suffice.
 
As to not being maneuverable enough (Aster or EESM or VL MICA or Standard or whichever): seriously, how many cruise missiles targetting ships, or even ballistic missiles, are designed to not only detect they're being tracked and engaged by countermissiles, but also to jink and evade said defensives to the extent a human-piloted aircraft would maneuver to evade?
I wasn't aware any surface attack missiles (land or antiship) were designed with high-G evasion in mind versus countermissiles and other CIWS.
 
And anyhow, given the right warhead design (fragmentation envelope, size of lethal fragment cloud, etc), you don't actually have to design anti-aircraft missiles to operate as hit-to-kill systems.
It's only against high-Mach (5+?) missiles that you really need the hit-to-kill capability (where the interception speeds exceed the velocity of fragments from an explosive warhead).
 
I'll have to agree with Herald on this one, though: (and pardon my laguage, but...) F**k those bean counters and their penny-pinching for weapons procurement. Buying an inferior-capability system is outright shameful. The fighting men and women of any nation deserve the best tech out there.
(but as my conspiracist nature always says, it's never the bean counters and procurement people, working out of safe and secure government offices, who are coming under fire and must rely on inferior or flawed systems to protect them.)
 
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NATO OF-2 RN       10/18/2007 12:02:55 PM
Herald,

I'll be the first to admit that I'm merely the monkey working at the coalface, if you'll permit the mixed metaphor.  Also, that coalface doesn't yet include Aster so I've no first hand experience.

I was lucky enough to have a conversation recently with an OF-5 RN weapon engineer, however, so thought I'd take the opportunity to see if he had any personal opinions.  I was luckier still that he was intrigued by the question and promised to go away and ask people in a better place to know.

Now it could be that you're absolutely right and he thought I didn't need to hear what you're saying, or it could be that the people he asked thought that about him.  However, the answer he came back with was basically that no-one he'd spoken to in a position to know these things knew anything about incompetently designed boosters, badly designed seeker arrays, stability problems in boost, improperly sited telemetry aerials or time clock mismatching.  The gist was that the missile has performed outstandingly well in tests to date.  The only issue that was acknowledged was warhead size, although that is apparently a non-issue due to the missile's exceptional manoeuvrability that vastly decreases the proximity to target it can achieve.

I am by no means intent on calling you a liar.  If you're telling the full story then I'm glad that someone is.  The what more I want is evidence for your claims.  The easily checkable specifics you keep repeating are specific claims.  You argue that the seeker, telemetry antenna, booster etc is awful.  Nowhere do you say how you reach that conclusion other than by inviting others to look at the missile.  Not being an engineer the numbers mean little to me but if the problems are so obvious, why hasn't anyone else noticed?  Particularly, where do you get your data for exact target intercept failure boundaries and the PK you claim?
 
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NATO OF-2 RN       10/18/2007 12:17:41 PM
I'd prefer to call it debate, rather than retaliation, doggtag.  I'm genuinely intrigued by what Herald says - primarily because I'm one of the people who will be relying on this missile!

What makes a perfect missile size?  I'd imagine it's a trade-off between growth potential, flight performance and magazine capacity.  On the logic that ESSM might be preferable to Aster because it has 10" against 7" (SM2 is 13.5") where does that leave Sea Dart at 17"?  I'd think that general opinion is that 17" makes for a lot of room and surprisingly good flight performance but fills magazine space uncomfortably quickly.  7" is supposed to give exceptional flight performance.  I'd agree that there's less room for growth in terms of range and payload.  However, why would you need payload if you're achieving the required proximity through performance?  That's a debate that could go on forever depending upon what performance you achieve and what payload that requires but if one is good enough to negate the other then surely there's no issue?  As for range, well Aster will certainly be more difficult to develop into a theatre ballistic missile defence than something larger.  That may be unfortunate, but it was a trade-off accepted when the design was formulated.
 As to not being maneuverable enough (Aster or EESM or VL MICA or Standard or whichever): seriously, how many cruise missiles targetting ships, or even ballistic missiles, are designed to not only detect they're being tracked and engaged by countermissiles, but also to jink and evade said defensives to the extent a human-piloted aircraft would maneuver to evade?
 
As someone who might be in the line of fire I'd obviously appreciate the very best equipment to defend myself with.  However, as a member of society I also appreciate that procurement decisions are also driven by financial and political factors and that sometimes risks will be taken on combat percentages that may or may not occur in order to give a few extra citizens a job or improve a few hospitals and schools.  I get upset when I think my service is short-changed, but I think it's quite a narrow perspective to rage against the dying of the light in the military when that decision is probably benefiting someone else.
 
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Herald1234    From MBDA itself, and the Italian Navy   10/18/2007 12:49:34 PM
Sorry, I can't be more specific.

Herald.
 
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Herald1234    What I can give youm by the numbers.   10/18/2007 1:45:30 PM
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2078/1618332599_e9bb26a876_o.jpg">

Explanation

The diagram is obviously not to scale.  The biggest problem with ASTER is the seeker. Its myopic. Now  the actual niumbers I used are the MER for AMRAAM which has a much betterm seeker than the one in ASTER. ASTER's seeker is an active miniature radar. The actual antenna size is important as it determines  signal detection threshhold  for the missile.  The MICA derived seeker antenna is only  about 15.5 centimeters in diameter.

Now  if it  could actually look as far as AMRAAM into sea-clutter to pick out a club it would have about 10,000 meters reach  into its drop basket  for the merge. That dropbbasket is a continuous conic that precedes the missile as it flies out. Because of the way the ASTER antenna is designed you have a F0V problem. Notice how little of the hemisphere is covered by a crossing target? The slice will usually work out to about 3000-5000 meters along the vampire's vector. ASTER is usually falling around 1000 mps so it is about 10 seconds out IF it acquires. The KLUB is chugging along at 250 mps before it boosts supersonic in its lastg15000 meters run in. That means if you work the math you think you have 10 seconds to make the merge at your R1 point.. That's wrong. You actually have seconds with the two crossing vectors. You work it out and you are allowed 2.5 seconds early or late or you don't see it at all.. If that missile coming at you is 400 mps or faster? Cut your time down to 1.5 seconds or less early or late at R1. Now if you can update only once every fifteen to thirty seconds guaranteed to predict lead toi merge at R1 into the dropbasket off the horizon limited EMPAR or Herakles because 80% of the telemetry you transmit the ASTER never "hears"? You miss. its that simple. OTH shots?  Forget it.  Not with ASTER 30. Its very much why MBDA told the RN that giving the ASTER a reange extending booster was a waste of time . They knew the physics and what the missile could do.

Don't think you wouldn't have this merge problem with AMRAAM or METEOR if you didn't plan for it. You would. Those two missiles have better seekers although the Germans and British started with the crap MICA EP-4 family seeker when they started to work on METEOR's active radar. The new METEOR seeker sees much farther into the drop basket and is a far better design. So you have a miss window around 3+ seconds early or late at 400 mps crossing target aspect.

This is what I can show you.

I wish that I could tell you that BAE  was able to solve the timematching conflict with SMARTL and SAMPSON to ASTER.[British technology is not French]  I can't, because to this date, I frankly don't know. I suspect that they might have. I just don't know.  

Herald
Herald      
 
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Herald1234       10/18/2007 5:08:11 PM

...if I can interrupt the two of you for a moment (deep breaths before retaliations, guys!)

Well I just got through with FS so I was irritated, apologies.

judging by Aster's 7" (~18cm) main body diameter vs ESSM's 10" main diameter (at the motor section),

ESSM's killbody is 20.3 cm., or about 1 inch in diameter larger.

do either of you feel ESSM would've been a better PAAMS candidate simply for the fact that engineering logic dictates the 10" body has more growth potential (range, payload, etc) ?

You mean 8 inch body? Yes.  But you have to factor in skid to turn as opposed to vectored shove. STT has its advantages; but pointing is not one of them.,

I like METEOR better than ESSM until you get to high altitude intercepts, but ESSM is definitely better than ASTER for the same sets of threats these missiles were designed-even if it uses an oldetr guidance and track lead scheme [SARH].

As I've repeated numerous times elsewhere, Aster is basically never going to be any more capable than any surface-launched AMRAAM proposal (AIM-120 also a 7" diameter main body).

Actually NASAM will be better than ASTER 15. PIFFPAFF as a vector adjust is troublesome even when it works; by introducing unbalanced and constantly need to be correctable SHOVE forces.

And that's giving Aster a lofty goal to measure up to (AMRAAM), let alone anything the MICA can/can't do or can/can't grow into.

 ASTER's  concept is not basically flawed. Its the MBDA execution that is horrible  They should have looked hard at what works.

STANDARD, KUB ,and BUK  works. C'est la vie.

I myself like ESSM because, aside from the obvious tech growth potential, it allows a larger throw weight (warhead) to a greater distance.

It is also fairly agile with a 500  mps^2  lateral shove capability.

Basically, I envision it to give smaller vessels who can't handle the full size SM MRs and ERs the equivalence of a "Standard Jr", regardless of those posters who've expressed their opinion that Standard uses some tired & outdated aerodynamic design.
If you refer to poseur1 and 2, they don't know what they write.  An engineering solution that works is forever. You don't reinvent the wheel. Certain aeroshells work and certain aeroshells don't. There is a reason I referred to STANDARD, KUB, and BUK.
Against aircraft that, due to the human pilot, cannot sustain extended 9G+ maneuvering, even the Standard's strakes-and-tailfins design is plenty adequate.

See above about ESSM and its 50 g+ lateral shove.
The design must have some merit, because that's exactly what ESSM uses, looking, as I mentioned, like a scaled-down Standard.
And there is the reason why given above.
That and the tail-mounted TVC nozzle should more than suffice.
Yep.
 

As to not being maneuverable enough (Aster or EESM or VL MICA or Standard or whichever): seriously, how many cruise missiles targetting ships, or even ballistic missiles, are designed to not only detect they're being tracked and engaged by countermissiles, but also to jink and evade said defensives to the extent a human-piloted aircraft would maneuver to evade?

There are some.

I wasn't aware any surface attack missiles (land or antiship) were designed with high-G evasion in mind versus countermissiles and other CIWS.

KLUB. Norwegian Anti-ship Missile among others.

And anyhow, given the right warhead design (fragmentation envelope, size of lethal fragment cloud, etc), you don't actually have to design anti-aircraft missiles to operate as hit-to-kill systems.

Against MACH 5+ vampire; HTK is absolutely necessary.

It's only against high-Mach (5+?) missiles that you really need the hit-to-kill capability (where the interception speeds exceed the velocity of fragments from an explosive warhead).
See above.
 

I'll have to agre
 
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doggtag    Thx, guys...   10/19/2007 7:47:19 AM
Re: the Sea Dart's 17" diameter.
Part of that is due in part to its ramjet design.
Not having any actual schematics on hand, I'll assume it's generally like a majority of other ramjets.
The actual missile components (guidance, control, warhead sections, etc) are contained within the center body section, with the ramjet ducting circulating around it.
I myself do not know the air feed/flow rate of the intake into the actual ramjet engine, or just how much cubic area must be devoted to the air duct(s) and how much is available for electronics and warhead.
But is at least ESSM/SeaSparrow capability possible (8"/203mm diameter body) ?
I want to believe so, which then suggests the Sea Dart had the growth potential, at least as far as electronics are concerned, to minimally equal any Aster, Sea Sparrow, or AMRAAM.
Plus, the ramjet propulsion suggests far greater range should be achievable.
 
Re: the ESSM's kill body diameter of 8" versus its rocket motor diameter of 10",
to me that still suggests the ESSM has a growth potential, by making the entire body diameter 10", even thru to the front kill section. In my eye, that means a larger warhead can be fitted, and a larger radar assembly that, ideally, will allow a greater engagement cone than the current system squeezed inside an 8" diameter nose section.
That, to me, suggests a superior system, simply because of the greater upgrade potential.
(any foreseeable improvements to the 7" diameter weapons should, conceivably, achieve greater capability if incorporated into the larger weapon).
 
All in all, excellent input guys.
This is how many of us commoners learn more about this stuff.
 
 
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andyf       10/19/2007 5:55:33 PM
does that mean that a vls cell could take a SDB with some sort of booster?
thats would eb a nice capabilty- if possible
 
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kensohaski       2/18/2008 9:04:45 AM
I did not think any missle could be used OTH if if did not have an AWAC handy.  And radar does have propagation holes at certain altitudes? 
 
Granted I understand about half of this thread and I would certainly enjoy simplified explanations.  Keep up the good debate guys and I will try to further my limited knowledge.
 
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