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Subject: Does israel have the best Air Force?
Worf_Israel    8/17/2003 7:15:10 AM
By what im told it is said Israel has the best trained air force in the world (i find it to be very true). it has been proven that the Israeli air force has taken on incredible odds when it comes to air force battle for example: when Israel attack the Iraq's nuclear facility, Israel sent 5 F-15 fighters to destroy the nuclear lab facility - after the f-15 cross to Iraq's air space 25 MG-22/23 (cant remember the MG number) were sent to destroy the F-15. NOT ONLY did the israel complete their mission they destroyed all 25 enemy aircraft without losing one of their own. even today it is CLEAR FACT that most US Air Force Tactics are tactics that were shown by the Israel - even today Israel has joined training with the USA (they don't talk about it) and the Israel pilots teach American pilots.(note:if you didn't know Israel and the UK has more joined training with the USA then any other country)
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Shirrush    RE:Spacegoing Air Force!   4/26/2004 2:41:23 PM
Warfare's evolution is making the conventional airforce largely redundant: there's scant use for it in LIC! Everybody seems to have noticed, and are steering their defence monies accordingly. The US found out that their F15 can still soldier on for a while, and there's talk of slashing the F22, for which there won't be any worthwhile adversary for a long time. The IAF can count on US$ 3 Bn of US aid for it's rather modest, baseline modernisation needs. F16-I's are being introduced as the A4's and F4's are being retired, and will fill the gap until 2015 or so when the first F35's come on line. Nor the French air force, neither the RAF can afford to equip themselves at the same rate as the IAF, and this is not only because they've chosen far more expensive, sophisticated platforms: how many EF-2000's have the Brits fielded so far? And I'm told the Rafale is not even at squadron strength in the Armee de l'Air. The USAF is going to space, and there's no other air force with their kind of space-driving experience. Breakthrough technologies will soon see the advent of the world-reaching, hypersonic transorbital fighter-bomber, and my money is on it being American. The IAF is, however, modestly following suit, and has a program in the works for aircraft- (F15 or mmmmaybe even Mig-25/31) launched microsatellites, that could be quickly deployed in case of conflict and provide the required intelligence in a hurry. There's no question in my mind: the best air force is, and will be, the most space-going one, and guess who'll be doing asteroid-busting as early as the next decade?
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Weekend pilot    RE:Spacegoing Air Force!   4/27/2004 12:18:16 PM
Its absolutely ridiculous to compare the USAF to the IAF. The total defense budget, of which at least a third goes to the USAF, exceeds $400 billion dollars. The total Israeli defense budget is only $10 or $11 billion. The USAF is an organization structured to have a global reach, which includes the tanker, overseas basing, and infrastructure necessary to support that reach. The USAF also includes, of course, all land based nuclear missiles, satellite reconnaisance capabilities, and organization to support our massive strategic capabilities. The point is this discussion, however, is not to compare the strategic capabilities of the USAF versus those of Israel. While Israel does have significant IRBM and nuclear delivery capability in its region, it is dwarfed by the U.S. The real question here is whether Israel's tactical AF compares to that of the U.S., once the USAF is in theatre. For a tiny country versus the US (only 1/50th of the population) Israel has a massive air force relative to its GDP and population. Israel's total GDP is only a little over $100 billion, compared to the more than $4 trillion US. economy - so Israel can only afford to spend the $2.3 billion per year we give them plus another $3 billion or so per year on their AF. Israel has, or will soon have as it acquires more F16I's, almost 400 platforms. Israel has done an excellent job in equipping those platforms with an excellent (many would say the best in the world) IR missile (Python 5), and their new copy of the AMRAAM (Derby), and no one would dispute a super job of selecting and training pilots. It is clear to me that Israel is building an AF to have the strategic reach to take out, for example, the Iranian nuclear facilities - so the Israeli AF is more than just a tactical one. How would Israeli pilots flying F16's or F15's equipped with Israeli missiles do against comparable US pilots is not the issue. In my opinion they would make a VERY tough opponent fighting to defend their country. The bottom line, however, is that the US can afford to lose planes and pilots. The IAF, no matter how good at the gitgo, can't.
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Weekend pilot    RE:Does israel have the best Air Force?   4/27/2004 1:23:16 PM
Israel has the Phalcon EW and control aircraft, which evidently is superior to the US AWACS in volume of space tracked, and number of engagements controlled.
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Ad    RE:Spacegoing Air Force!   4/29/2004 1:50:04 PM
The circumstances for fielding the aircraft are greatly different. Israel needs its air force for defence, Britain and France need they’re for offensive strikes. If Britain was under a continued threat, then all 232 Typhoons would have been produced and into squadron battle readiness, far more quickly. We have the luxury of time and the Worlds second largest navy, safe guarding our interests. A comfort you don’t have. As for defence spending, I gather your point, yet I would come back with; If Britain or France were on a war footing, similar to Israel, then only Germany and Japan could produce and acquire more weaponry at a faster rate. And that may change if Britain surpasses Germany, as Europe’s number one economy. As for a top air superiority interceptor. I’d be comfortable putting my Typhoon up against an F-15L. The F-15 was taken apart in February in a two on two engagement, where the Typhoons were jumped. It took 9 seconds for the Typhoon to achieve lock on and 60 seconds to deliver kills, to both aircraft. And considering the time the USAF pilots have had with there machines, I think it highlights why the F-22 is in production. Have Israel really got the kind of cash to afford scramjet aircraft? Ten billion, split, isn’t going to buy a lot of bang for your buck.
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jacques    RE:Does israel have the best Air Force?   4/30/2004 5:43:59 AM
Israel has the Phalcon EW and control aircraft, which evidently is superior to the US AWACS in volume of space tracked, and number of engagements controlled I hate to disagree with you but you're wrong. The Phalcon doesn't work. Look at the Nimrod AEW after spending millions of pounds the british can't get to to work. How can Israel get the Phalcon to work ? Is there any technical brek through I haven't hear of ? For your information the Israel air force still using the Hawkeye. Back to the subject. Doesn Israel have the best air force ? Yes and no. They have the best air force in the middle est. They don't have the bst air force in the world. The US have the best air force in the world but not in Europe. France has the best air force in Europe but not in the world. I hope this will claer up all the misundestanding.
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macawman    RE:Does israel have the best Air Force?   5/1/2004 12:25:24 AM
Answer: No, Israel does not have the 'best' Air Force. The IAF probable has the better F-15 and F-16 pilots than the rest of the free world. Reason: the combat focus, selection, and training is far more intensive than what other pilots receive. Also like the German Mig 29 pilots, the IAF is very hard to beat in mock aerial combat..
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Weekend pilot    RE:Does israel have the best Air Force?   5/2/2004 1:39:34 PM
Israeli pilots are the product of a much more intensive selection and training process than US, British, or other Nato pilots. Every Israeli male (unless exempted for religious reasons) is conscripted at 18 and given a battery of psychometric and medical tests. Only those at the very top in intelligence, motivation, reflexes, vision, and other categories are allowed to attempt to become an IDF pilot. In the U.S., while a much larger country, certainly not every man or woman in the country applies to become a pilot which winnows down the pool. And, the selection criteria are much easier compared to Israel where the pilots are THE most intelligent, etc. in the population. Once accepted into the program, Israeli pilot trainees go through incredibly intense preflight training, similar to US Seals, which is designed to eliminate anyone who doesn't have the endurance, motivation, dedication to the state, and will to win which is required of a successful combat pilot. All of this happens before they get anywhere near an airplane. Then, pilot training itself is incredibly tough and selection. There have actually been Israeli pilot classes where NOBODY graduated. So, the 2000 or so Israeli pilots are the best of the best that their population size can support. There is no such thing as an average Israeli fighter pilot. They are all super smart, tough, fast, and driven to win. Then, the IAF equips them with weaponry, such as the Python 5, which gives them every possible combat edge. So, as I have stated before the IAF is certainly not the best AF in the world, the USAF is, if you find yourself one on one in dogfight you had better have it together. One other thing. Studies of WWII US pilots revealed that the top 5% of pilots had most of the kills. This works to the advantage of the Israeli pilot, who are all top notch.
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Ad    RE:Does israel have the best Air Force?   5/3/2004 9:49:34 AM
Could you actually provide me with your own knowledge of USAF, RAF or FAF pilot selection, or are you making assumptions?
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Wurstfinger    RE:Does israel have the best Air Force?   5/3/2004 10:51:41 PM
counting one and one together, israel really seems to have the moste effective military at all, as even US-marine airforce is beaten in training excersies. their merkava 5 tanks are also very formidable fighting machines, better than M1A2. for a country of its size, this is a remarkable achievement. but it also presses hard on the economy. the only thing i wonder is, why does it have no real IFV like most other countrys have? are they regarded as ineffective? M2 Bradley destroyed more iraqi tanks during DS than the M1 Abrams did!
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Wurstfinger    RE:Does israel have the best Air Force?   5/4/2004 12:28:01 AM
i read about one air fighting in yom kippur war, where israeli airforce more or less lost a bigger airbattle against egyptian mig 21 defending their bases. they do not talk about that in israel very much, actually not at all ;-) but u see, every air force can be beaten, if they encounter their right foe. it did not change the outcoming of the war as you see. mig 21 was and still is a good plane, the israelis witnessed it 1st hand. mig 23 was actually a step back in aerial history.
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