The IAF has proved itself over and over again. Flexibility and rapid adaption. In 1982, the Bekaa Valley represented the decisive defeat of the Soviet IADS. 10 years before Desert Storm and without Stealth and newer ECM capabilities. The Soviet lessons learnt, as i understand, were a more flexible IADS with inclusion of Western style tactical fighters-29's etc. 1992 and the IAF versus the "lessons learnt" Syrian AF- tactical Mig29 profiles combined with high speed and traditional Mig23 setups, would I believe, have forced a similar result! Albeit with IAF losses but the battle still won. And certainly at an acceptable attrtion rate-more so than 73 and SAM6!!

RE:Does israel have the best Air Force? 11/22/2003 5:47:03 PM Some thoughts on what makes the IAF unique: "1. Selection criteria for pilots - Israel recruits pilots right out of high school. This makes Israeli pilots younger (with probably better reflexes) and more experienced at the same age as their counterparts who first go to college or a college-like military academy before beginning flight school." It also makes them less educated, more prone to immaturity, and generally lacking in the professional attributes of higher education. If this makes a great Air Force ... I'm sure Angola or Chad can now make a claim to greatness. 3. Unique understanding of opposition weapon systems and engineering approaches -- Israel benefited greatly from the huge influx of Sovet engineers in recent years and is now one of the leading contractors in upgrading Eastern European Migs with new avionics (e.g. the highly successful Romanian Aero program). How is Israel "unique" in this matter? Every .... and I mean EVERY nation in the world, all throughout history, has studied their enemies and their hardware. That is why the US has bought Soviet equipment and wrung it out at Aberdeen since the 50s. 4. The IAF is a small institution compared to the USAF and therefore more nimble. Also, as mentioned by other posters Israel's focus is regional rather than global so there is a benefit in specializing. How does a small size make it more nimble? Nimble would imply the ability to adapt to different contengencies and use different assets to address the particular nuences of the situation at hand. A small size therefor takes away options, reducing the number of assets, reducing the posibility to adapting to the situation at hand. It can do one thing ... it can defend the Israeli air space. To say it can project power, perform strategic bombing campaings, or anything else is false. Once again, nothing unique about Israel. 6. Israel benefits greatly from its close relationship with the U.S. and gets the benefit of the huge investments made in U.S. training and technology capabilities. Thats putting it mildly. But once again, nothing unique to the Israelis. Air Forces around the world benefit from their alliance with the US. Although admittadly, very few receive billions of dollars annually to buy new toys. 7. The IAF has a unique culture and tradition which fosters innovation and excellence. Israeli fighter pilots are national heros and their status far surpasses their peers elsewhere I guess thats why the RAF pilots in the battle of Britain recieved no recognition. Or why no one knows the names Richenbacher, Lindberg, Boyington, Yeager, or pilots from other countries. Historicly pilots elsewhere have never recieved any kind of recognition at all ..... because only Israeli fighter pilots are looked up to.

"Selectivity gives the IAF the Edge 11/22/2003 9:22:40 PM I think the thing that really gives the IAF the edge above other airforces is the rigour of its pilot training program and the extremely high wash out rate. I am told that, of all the trainees who begin pilot training in the US, roughly 40-50% win their wings. Now, let's concede that there has already been a substantial winnowing out process before the pilot's course begins (on medical, educational and other grounds). Yet, in Israel there are similarly rigorous selection criteria for admittance to pilot training. Yet, the Israeli Air Force maintains performance standards in the training itself that are much higher than any other air force. Thus, only about 3-5% of trainees who have already passed the initial hurdles and have been admitted to the course ever graduate and win their wings. Moreover, of that select 3-5%, the creme de la creme go to fighters, the second best to helicopters, and the third best to transports. Thus, Israeli fighter pilots go through a much more rigourous selection process than pilots in any other airforce. While there might certainly be pilots in the US, RAF and other airforces that might be as good as the average ISraeli fighter jock, as a group, the Israelis are head and shoulders above the aircrew of any other airforce. When you add to that the technlogical prowess of the Israeli arms industry that produces AA missiles and avionics that are well in advance of those used by other countries, the result is a pretty redoubtable package" The problem I see with this line of reasoning is .... out of a population of six million, how many fighter pilots do yall have? From the way y'all go on and on ( and on and on and on) about how Israel has the largest air force second to the US (which is bull) I would think that there would be a disproportionate number of fighter pilots per capita. A smaller total population would lead to a smaller pool of potentiol pilots. Every Israeli, knowing that service was compulsary, would want to be a fighter pilot. I think thats why 97% flunk out. 97% were never fit to be pilots to begin with. In the US, you mock a 40-50 success rate in training pilots. Is it not possible that the US, with a vastly larger pool of potential pilots, can accept only those that have the capability of of actually succeeding? Those that have worked toward a goal they wish to attain, not because its required of them, but because that is what they choose to do. A higher success rate would be expected from those candidates versus those that want to be fighter pilots so they dont have to be infantrymen in the West Bank. Since the potential pool is smaller to begin with, I actually look at it totally opposite than you. Is it possible that the 3% that do make it arent even as good as the 50-60% of US candidates that do? As an instructor teaching in the basic law enforcement accademy teaching police recruits, I can tell you that the smaller the pool you draw from ... the less qualified candidates you get. There is no way around that. In my area of North Texas, there are approximately 800 applicants for every officer opening. Of those that make it thru the selection process approximately 95% graduate. This is due to hiring only those that actually have the potential to graduate to begin with. Those that slip thru that process are washed out by us instructors with an eye for those people. It is nothing to brag about that 97% of the Israelis that attempt to become pilots cant cut it. To me it simple says your initial pool of applicants is severly lacking to begin with.

USAF relies on mandates and doctrine. Professionally a first class outfit the USAF but at times clumbsy and produces fighter pilots like sausage machines. Don't underestimate the flexibility and adaptability of a small and highly motivated fighter culture. Change in tactics and doctrine immediate and not bueracratic. Examples- IAF, Royal Navy, RAAF. RAF when they get a decent fighter.

I thought is was supposed to be second only to the US? Let me see if this is right....its second only to the US, its regional but has the same reach as the US, and now its small and nimble, and because its small...the pilots are better than the US...Is that what you're all saying? Look , I know you guys have to believe this stuff because of your situation BUT: Israeli jet pilots have been shot down by Arab pilots; US pilots have NOT (I'm including Libyan as well as Iraqi kills). And before you start wriggling and trying to change the debate again or saying that "it's not fair" because the US usually doesn't let other air forces fly...well, that's the point of a great air force...COUNTER AIR! the other guy doesn't even get to fly! Great air force: US Air-to-air against Arabs: US = zero losses and a few kills

ChdNorm writes "In the US, you mock a 40-50 success rate in training pilots. Is it not possible that the US, with a vastly larger pool of potential pilots, can accept only those that have the capability of of actually succeeding?...Since the potential pool is smaller to begin with, I actually look at it totally opposite than you. Is it possible that the 3% that do make it arent even as good as the 50-60% of US candidates that do? " I respectfully disagree. The US military is a volunteer force that represents a very small fraction of the American population. The IDF, by contrast, operates a system of national conscription that is drawn from the entirety of the (admittedly smaller) Israeli population. So, I would argue that the much larger U.S. population does not really reflect the size of the applicant pool because the overwhelming majority of Americans have nor will ever serve in the military, much less try their hand at pilot training. Moreover, you don't just waltz into the IAF's pilot training course. There are some pretty rigorous prerequisites for entry into pilot training, including tests assessing IQ, emotional stability, medical, reflexes, etc... And, to top it all off, aspiring pilots in the IAF have to pass a very rigorous SAS style selection course before they are accepted as trainee aircrew. And then, only about 3% complete the course and get their wings. Finally, the record speaks for itself. In 1999 the IAF and the 6th Fleet conducted the first (and last) series of air combat exercises between the two forces. The US magazine Air Force reported that the air to air kill ratio during the exercise was 14 to 1 in favour of the Israelis. In fact, the results were so embarassing, both to the US Navy and IAF brass, that all subsequent exercises have been conducted with two joint Israeli/US teams taking on each other. The US and Israel are the best of allies and friends, so this is really a theoretical exercise. But, it is generally accepted, even in US fighter jock circles, that the Israelis are sans pareil as a tactical air force. Surely there are individual US pilots who are as good as any Israeli, but as a group the IAF are the best in the world.

THE ASSOCIATED PRESS 09/22/2003 6:18 AM PDT Israeli air force pilots handily beat their German counterparts in "dogfights" in the first ever air force exercise between the two countries, an Israeli military official said Monday. The Israeli F-15 pilots, aided by special technology that Israel does not share or sell to other countries, beat the Germans flying Mig-29 Fulcrums by more than 100 "hits," said the official, who spoke on condition of anonymity. In the past, Israel has beaten American air force pilots by similar margins, the officials added. Both the German MiG 29 Fulcrum and the Israeli Eagle have a helmet-mounted sight that is the envy of the Americans, and the Israeli Elbit DASH system on the F-15 is regarded as probably the best in the world. Israel purchases U.S. warplanes without battle technology, installing its own locally made systems into the aircraft. The Boeing F-15I is largely based on the American F-15E Strike Eagle, as a consequence of which it too has the APG-70 radar, albeit a slightly constrained export version. However, the Israelis have installed a lot of hardware and software systems of their own, including highly effective electronic warfare (EW) equipment. With the highly agile Python 4 missile, they can even fire around corners. The exercise was conducted over the past two weeks in the skies of Sardinia in Italy. Israel's air force has held exercises with the United States and Turkey recently.

Mig 29's from old East Germany circa 1990. That's your case?

"I respectfully disagree. The US military is a volunteer force that represents a very small fraction of the American population. The IDF, by contrast, operates a system of national conscription that is drawn from the entirety of the (admittedly smaller) Israeli population. So, I would argue that the much larger U.S. population does not really reflect the size of the applicant pool because the overwhelming majority of Americans have nor will ever serve in the military, much less try their hand at pilot training." And youve just arrived at my point ... The people that make it to USAF pilot training are there because they want to be. People that do not want to be simply don't try. Only those that exhibit the potential are accepted to begin with. And do you have any idea how hard and competative it is to become a pilot in the US armed forces? People spend hours upon hours in college getting advanced degrees, paying for their own general aviation training, and dedicating their lives to obtaining that goal. Back to per capita, I would tka e a guess that it is harder to become a fighter pilot in the US than in Israel. "The US and Israel are the best of allies and friends, so this is really a theoretical exercise. But, it is generally accepted, even in US fighter jock circles, that the Israelis are sans pareil as a tactical air force." Show me one American (or any country for that matter) fighter pilot that will sit there and tell you he's not as good as an Israeli ... Being a fighter pilot is very egocentric, expressing those sentiments are highly improbable. You state things like that as fact, as if you know. Instead of just recycling all the same old tired lines we've all heard before, take a stab at substanciating even half of the things you pass off as fact. Either that, or admit it's simply you're opinion.

What case? Its pure public relations! The whole aritcle is written by Israeli military. Any German comment? And would the IAF ever say they didn't score against Germans? No? So no proof. QED Anyway, the question was air force - not just fighter jocks - "best air force!" With all this super special secret equipment and super man fighter jocks people might just believe you don't need us any more!