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Subject: Does israel have the best Air Force?
Worf_Israel    8/17/2003 7:15:10 AM
By what im told it is said Israel has the best trained air force in the world (i find it to be very true). it has been proven that the Israeli air force has taken on incredible odds when it comes to air force battle for example: when Israel attack the Iraq's nuclear facility, Israel sent 5 F-15 fighters to destroy the nuclear lab facility - after the f-15 cross to Iraq's air space 25 MG-22/23 (cant remember the MG number) were sent to destroy the F-15. NOT ONLY did the israel complete their mission they destroyed all 25 enemy aircraft without losing one of their own. even today it is CLEAR FACT that most US Air Force Tactics are tactics that were shown by the Israel - even today Israel has joined training with the USA (they don't talk about it) and the Israel pilots teach American pilots.(note:if you didn't know Israel and the UK has more joined training with the USA then any other country)
 
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5thGuards       8/8/2007 4:25:28 PM



Your wrong , there are far more operational Mig-31M  that you claim , and furthermore do you know respective AWACS range ?
Furthermore Mig-31's are currently beeing upgraded to M2 version (  40 for a start ) with even a better radar operating far beyond 400km , after they come operational in 2009 they will be further upgraded to M3 with even a better radar..




Yes, I am familiar with the range of the E-3C AWACS.  I'm also familiar with both the claimed range and the assessed range of the Zaslon-M equipped MiG-31M.  As is often the case with Russian equipment, the performance claims in the open press are... optimistic.

 

I'm also aware of how some people think/hope/wish that in just a few years the Russian Air Force will become mighty again, and their MiG-31s will have been upgraded to MiG-31M, MiG-31M2, MiG-31M3,....  Oh, and they will all be armed with R-37s.

 

But not today.

 


Look I suggest you read some articles because your the 1 claiming stuff , for your information Mig-31 succesfully shot a drone from 400km away with Zaslon-M and the R-37, that is a fact..
And They do have more than 100 Mig-31's of version M...

Now im done talking about this topic its pointless , its Israel air force , why are we talking about Russian Air force now?
 
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Herald1234       8/8/2007 4:52:03 PM

Your wrong , there are far more operational Mig-31M  that you claim ,
Not with ERLAAMs there aren't. They don't have the launch rails, the interfaces oir the A2A rockets.
and furthermore do you know respective AWACS range ?
Actually you should ask DJ that question,  but yes I have more than a good idea of what an AWACs radar can do.

Furthermore Mig-31's are currently beeing upgraded to M2 version (  40 for a start ) with even a better radar operating far beyond 400km , after they come operational in 2009 they will be further upgraded to M3 with even a better radar..
Clear up one thing about radar. Mean effective range has to be measured against a known benchmark standard. This is usually expressed as the strength of a measurable threshhold return signal at a set interval as reflected off  a hypothetical standard  radio reflector surface area and material. Depending on material properties, altitudes, target shape, target aspect, radar orientation, WEATHER,  and how radio opaque the atmosphere at the moment is across the interval; your EFFECTIVE RANGE can vary vastly across that  interval by a 5+ orders of magnitude over the same event. Take whatever garbage you read on the internet or in the popular press about radar ranges and junk it. 
 
You must also understand that a Mig 31 despite its huge size as a "fighter" aircraft has a SMALL transmitter and LIMITED power compared to either a WEDGETAIL or a SENTRY. Those planes have POWER and they have HUGE transmitter/receivers compared to a Foxhound. All things being equal under the operating conditions across the interval, no matter what the Foxhound's altitude, it will be seen long before it sees the AWACs. Trust me on this. I KNOW.   
Herald
 
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displacedjim       8/8/2007 5:31:36 PM





As is often the case with Russian equipment, the performance claims in the open press are... optimistic.


Look I suggest you read some articles because your the 1 claiming stuff , for your information Mig-31 succesfully shot a drone from 400km away with Zaslon-M and the R-37, that is a fact..
And They do have more than 100 Mig-31's of version M...

Now im done talking about this topic its pointless , its Israel air force , why are we talking about Russian Air force now?

Like I said, *optimistic*.  Chop those numbers in half, and for the MiG-31M in half again, and you're getting into the right ballpark.  Aviation journalism continues to live down to its reputation regarding Russia.
I only brought it up since you were using it as a data point for why the Russian Air Force was superior in some way to the Israeli Air Force.  I couldn't care less about such a comparison, but I don't like to see anyone laboring under a false impression regarding weapon system performance.  Unfortunately I can only make my assertions and leave it at that.  If you stick around more than a couple days perhaps you will decide you can trust my words without the evidence of citations to aviation magazines.  That might sound arrogant or not credible, but it's the best I can do.
 
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5thGuards       8/8/2007 6:41:02 PM
You were the 1 claiming Israel produces best missiles in the world , but their longest range missile is 50km

Both Aim-120 and R-77 have a FAR MORE EFFECTIVE RANGE

 
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5thGuards       8/8/2007 6:52:00 PM



Your wrong , there are far more operational Mig-31M  that you claim ,

Not with ERLAAMs there aren't. They don't have the launch rails, the interfaces oir the A2A rockets.

and furthermore do you know respective AWACS range ?

Actually you should ask DJ that question,  but yes I have more than a good idea of what an AWACs radar can do.


Furthermore Mig-31's are currently beeing upgraded to M2 version (  40 for a start ) with even a better radar operating far beyond 400km , after they come operational in 2009 they will be further upgraded to M3 with even a better radar..

Clear up one thing about radar. Mean effective range has to be measured against a known benchmark standard. This is usually expressed as the strength of a measurable threshhold return signal at a set interval as reflected off  a hypothetical standard  radio reflector surface area and material. Depending on material properties, altitudes, target shape, target aspect, radar orientation, WEATHER,  and how radio opaque the atmosphere at the moment is across the interval; your EFFECTIVE RANGE can vary vastly across that  interval by a 5+ orders of magnitude over the same event. Take whatever garbage you read on the internet or in the popular press about radar ranges and junk it. 
 

You must also understand that a Mig 31 despite its huge size as a "fighter" aircraft has a SMALL transmitter and LIMITED power compared to either a WEDGETAIL or a SENTRY. Those planes have POWER and they have HUGE transmitter/receivers compared to a Foxhound. All things being equal under the operating conditions across the interval, no matter what the Foxhound's altitude, it will be seen long before it sees the AWACs. Trust me on this. I KNOW.   


Herald







Mig-31's main task is to cruise at 2.83 mach , on altitude of 28.000m ~ in front and rear hemispheres including those on ground clutter, under normal and adverse weather conditions, the target maneuvering and enemy deploying active and passive countermeasures far faster and higher than almost any aircraft can reach..
In a group of MiG-31E aircraft information exchange among aircraft of the group is possible about their position and availability of tracked targets. A group of 4 MiG-31E aircraft in formation flight can scan airspace on width of 900-1000 km that is especially important in case of the absence or destruction of the ground air-defence system.
During a combat mission a single MiG-31E aircraft can simultaneously track up to 10 targets and attack up to 4 of them having various headings, altitudes and speeds.The aircraft's datalinks and powerful radar also allow the MiG-31 to act as a 'mini AWACS' in its own.
In a test a Mig-31 succesfully shot down a drone using R-37 on a range of about 300km+
It is said that the Zaslon-M radar has a max range of 400km.
Currently there are Mig-31M2 in development which will come operational year 2009 , with a even better radar.
Note that Russians also have AWACS , so why do you insist that AWACS would play such an important role on a Israel fighter that they will be able  to shot down Mig-31 , thats just a imagination..
 
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5thGuards       8/8/2007 6:53:29 PM



Your wrong , there are far more operational Mig-31M  that you claim ,

Not with ERLAAMs there aren't. They don't have the launch rails, the interfaces oir the A2A rockets.

and furthermore do you know respective AWACS range ?

Actually you should ask DJ that question,  but yes I have more than a good idea of what an AWACs radar can do.


Furthermore Mig-31's are currently beeing upgraded to M2 version (  40 for a start ) with even a better radar operating far beyond 400km , after they come operational in 2009 they will be further upgraded to M3 with even a better radar..

Clear up one thing about radar. Mean effective range has to be measured against a known benchmark standard. This is usually expressed as the strength of a measurable threshhold return signal at a set interval as reflected off  a hypothetical standard  radio reflector surface area and material. Depending on material properties, altitudes, target shape, target aspect, radar orientation, WEATHER,  and how radio opaque the atmosphere at the moment is across the interval; your EFFECTIVE RANGE can vary vastly across that  interval by a 5+ orders of magnitude over the same event. Take whatever garbage you read on the internet or in the popular press about radar ranges and junk it. 
 

You must also understand that a Mig 31 despite its huge size as a "fighter" aircraft has a SMALL transmitter and LIMITED power compared to either a WEDGETAIL or a SENTRY. Those planes have POWER and they have HUGE transmitter/receivers compared to a Foxhound. All things being equal under the operating conditions across the interval, no matter what the Foxhound's altitude, it will be seen long before it sees the AWACs. Trust me on this. I KNOW.   


Herald







Mig-31's main task is to cruise at 2.83 mach , on altitude of 28.000m ~ in front and rear hemispheres including those on ground clutter, under normal and adverse weather conditions, the target maneuvering and enemy deploying active and passive countermeasures far faster and higher than almost any aircraft can reach..
In a group of MiG-31E aircraft information exchange among aircraft of the group is possible about their position and availability of tracked targets. A group of 4 MiG-31E aircraft in formation flight can scan airspace on width of 900-1000 km that is especially important in case of the absence or destruction of the ground air-defence system.
During a combat mission a single MiG-31E aircraft can simultaneously track up to 10 targets and attack up to 4 of them having various headings, altitudes and speeds.The aircraft's datalinks and powerful radar also allow the MiG-31 to act as a 'mini AWACS' in its own.
In a test a Mig-31 succesfully shot down a drone using R-37 on a range of about 300km+
It is said that the Zaslon-M radar has a max range of 400km.
Currently there are Mig-31M2 in development which will come operational year 2009 , with a even better radar.
Note that Russians also have AWACS , so why do you insist that AWACS would play such an important role on a Israel fighter that they will be able  to shot down Mig-31 , thats just a imagination..
 
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VelocityVector       8/8/2007 7:14:35 PM
Mig-31's main task is to cruise at 2.83 mach

2.83 mach in cruise?  Wow.  I'll skip the rest.  Except to add that MiG-31 should make for a fine distributed awacs in two-flights at a regional level.

v^2
 
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displacedjim       8/8/2007 7:35:09 PM

You were the 1 claiming Israel produces best missiles in the world , but their longest range missile is 50km

Both Aim-120 and R-77 have a FAR MORE EFFECTIVE RANGE


No, I was not.
Yes, AIM-120 and R-77 have a much greater range than Python 5.  Of course missile ranges, like radar ranges, are dependent on several variables so it's always important to establish a common set of initial conditions to compare different missiles.  I will now bring up (I didn't bother mentioning it before) that again you need to divide by 2 (and more like 3 for the R-77) to get into the right ballpark (you previously cited a range of 180km for both missiles).

 
 
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Herald1234       8/8/2007 9:27:01 PM
Mig-31's main task is to cruise at 2.83 mach , on altitude of 28.000m ~ in front and rear hemispheres including those on ground clutter, under normal and adverse weather conditions, the target maneuvering and enemy deploying active and passive countermeasures far faster and higher than almost any aircraft can reach.
 
 
The actual data should read more like this
 
Specifications (MiG-31)
General characteristics
Crew: Two (pilot and weapons system officer)
Length: 22.69 m (74 ft 5 in)
Wingspan: 13.46 m (44 ft 2 in)
Height: 6.15 m (20 ft 2 in)
Wing area: 61.6 m² (663 ft²)
Empty weight: 21,820 kg (48,100 lb)
Loaded weight: 41,000 kg (90,400 lb)
Max takeoff weight: 46,200 kg (101,900 lb)
Powerplant: 2× Soloviev D-30F6 afterburning turbofans
Dry thrust: 93 kN (20,900 lbf) each
Thrust with afterburner: 152 kN (34,172 lbf) each
Performance
Maximum speed: Mach 2.83, 3,255 km/h (2,112 mph) at 13,000 m (42,650 ft)^1
Combat radius: 720 km at Mach 2.35 (450 mi)
Ferry range: 3,300 km (2,050 mi)
Service ceiling: 20,600 m (67,600 ft)
Rate of climb: 208 m/s (41,000 ft/min)
Wing loading: 666 kg/m² (136 lb/ft²)
Thrust/weight: 0.85
Maximum g-load: 5 g
[1]
[2]
[some data seem to be of Mig-25E not Mig-25 original type]
Armament
1x GSh-6-23 23 mm cannon with 260 rounds.
Fuselage recesses for four R-33 (AA-9 'Amos') or (for MiG-31M/BM only) six R-37 (AA-X-13 'Arrow') long-range air-to-air missiles.
Four underwing pylons for a combination of:
two R-40RD1/R-40TD1 (AA-6 'Acrid') medium-range missiles, and
four R-60 (AA-8 'Aphid') or R-73 (AA-11 'Archer') short-range IR missiles.
four R-77 (AA-12 'Adder') long-range missiles.
Some aircraft are equipped to launch the Kh-31P (AS-17 'Krypton') and Kh-58 (AS-11 'Kilter') anti-radiation missiles in the suppression of enemy air defenses (SEAD) role.
[edit]
References
^ http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/av.htm
MiG-31E description at manufacturer's site
MiG-31 Foxhound
MiG-31 @ >
 
^1 This is a dash speed when it goes to full reheat. it can burn up its entire fuel load in about 400 seconds and burnout its engines at that condition. Normal supersonic depending on mission is MACH 1.4 to 1.6
As a general note the F-15 Eagle was SPECIFICALLY ORIGINALLY designed to hunt and kill FOXBATS.
 

In a group of MiG-31E aircraft information exchange among aircraft of the group is possible about their position and availability of tracked targets. A group of 4 MiG-31E aircraft in formation flight can scan airspace on width of 900-1000 km that is especially important in case of the absence or destruction of the ground air-defence system.

Separation is 250 kilometers apart in constant altititude line abreast and is a theoretical ideal for this conclusion. In reality there would be a programmed overlap of at least 35%-50% scan coverage to avoid edge leakage through the radar "fence".

The data sharing is how many channels at how many bytes again? Last time I checked the Russian capability in this area was "FAIR" with target data displayable on cockpit repeaters, but that required a ground station downlink for data sharing.  

During a combat mission a single MiG-31E aircraft can simultaneously track up to 10 targets and attack up to 4 of them having various headings, altitudes and speeds.The aircraft's datalinks and powerful radar also allow the MiG-31 to act as a 'mini AWACS' in its own.

This is a valid and fair description as far as it goes. The Russian technical capability is quite competitive, but is radar range and computer processor limited. [MiG 31M about 100-150 km MER and TWO targetsa hit out of FOUR engaged].  Their GCUs in their missiles and their telemetry capability in their A2A rockets, though some would deny it, is still "good". Data exchange rates by US telemetry standards may be slow, but unlike some FAMOUS A2A missiles [MICA], I would expect the Vympals to work as designed.

Russian engineers have never had trouble designing a missile that will point where steered as far as I know.

In a
 
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5thGuards       8/9/2007 6:41:42 AM
Speed (km/h): Max speed Mach 2.83
Alt. (m): 22'859

Right , anyway you seem to claim and claim and claim these things without even regarding on other factors , for example why do you continue to strive how israel has AWACS and could shot down Mig-31 when you yourself know that R-37 is far more capable than any Israel A-A missile , and besides that Russians have AWACS too and more military satellites than anyone , so I really fail too see the point , since Israel does have a disadvantage with using all sources i compared them without any and clearly said that R-77 is far capable of shooting any aircraft down , so I really fail too see the point , your claiming absolutely insane stuff as if Israel that has few modified planes to AWACS ( At least 4-5 country's have far more ) is capable of defeating any air force without beeing even seen , thats just bullcrap its not even worth discusing..
 
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