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Subject: UK Manpads
streaky bacon    7/27/2007 8:41:15 AM
Most countries us IR seeker for Manpads why does the UK choose to use Laser Guided.! Do the UK mistrust IR tech! Cannot see the true advantages Laser has over IR when you compare the disadvantages!
 
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Yimmy       7/27/2007 9:23:55 AM
I don't know about the advantages/disadvantages in the surface to air targeting role, but HVM does use an IR sensor for early warning when mounted on the stormer vehicle.

Also, HVM is fully capable of engaging ground targets - something I doubt IR only systems are capable of.  It's three darts aren't huge, however they do have some HE in them and travel at mach 4.5, so I imagine they would be a serious threat to light armour.

 
 
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flamingknives       7/27/2007 9:25:02 AM
I think that it has to do with what you expect to do with manpads.

Pros for beam riding:
* Can't be jammed, spoofed or decoyed.
* Doesn't require that the seeker be cooled before firing, so there is no system lag in launching. As long as your operator is on the ball, response can be instantaneous.
* Likewise, you don't have to wait until the missile locks on.
* Easier to make all-aspect ( and I suspect that this was the original reason - not much point shooting the plane down after it has shot you up.)
* If you can see it, you can shoot it - you don't need there to be a nice heat source.
* Can fly faster than IR missiles, since it doesn't have to worry about aerothermal heating of the seeker window.

Cons:
* Need to keep the sight on the target (although this is possible on most manouevring targets)
* Only works within line of sight.
 
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streaky bacon       7/27/2007 9:41:03 AM
I assume that the British Army rather Laser guided to IR but I would also assume that the Fire and forget aspect of IR, meaning you can shoot and get the hell out of there, would be a big plus point for the Troops! Ive heard that SAS would rather Stinger IR manpads to Line of Sight MANPADS so surely SAS docterines must have some influence when procurring such a system! Would assume (I do alot of that) that SAS opinions have alot of weight behind them! But then who can understand political defence decisions!
 
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Herald1234    FK reasons;   7/27/2007 9:50:56 AM
are very good ones, plus you HIT cold targets that cannot otherwise flare decoy you or disco ball your IR homer off.

LoS is not that big a deal considering that you are about to get smacked anyway. Bringing Vimpy down after he smeared your buddies the next hill over is STILL a good idea. Means he won't be back to smear YOU.

Respects;

Herald

 
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streaky bacon       7/27/2007 10:06:41 AM
Therefore is the best seeker for a MANPADS a combined IR/Laser seeker head! One where the operator has the option to switch between IR (Fire and Forget) or Laser seeker. No sure if such a thing is possible or how complex or expensive such an undertaking would be just see it as offering the solution for some problems. If its possible how much would it cost to develop??????
 
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flamingknives    Herald:   7/27/2007 10:15:45 AM
Agreed, although with chase-aspect IR missile you only get to shoot them after they have passed. Beam riders get  both options

Hitting relatively cold targets is very useful, especially if you find yourself with air supremacy and lots of expensive SAMs in your arsenal. Because then you can shoot at ground targets, which Starstreak can do.

Streaky Bacon:

Fire and forget is less of an issue if the time of flight is much shorter, which it certainly is for Starstreak. Plus there is the doctrine issue as well. If the enemy aircraft is coming at you (as part of an armoured battlegroup, for example) anyway, then being able to fire and forget isn't going to help too much.

The SAS use the Stinger, but then they are not an armoured battlegroup, but light, covert infantry, so an aircraft hitting them on the first pass is unlikely. If they wanted to knock down aircraft, then it would be more likely to be one out looking for them, so they'll have a bit of time (and better aspect choice) to launch their SAM. The Stinger is also much lighter than the beamrider missiles, which is another important consideration for deep recon infantry.
 
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streaky bacon       7/27/2007 10:21:34 AM
FK thanks I see what you are saying? Do you think that future MANPADS will be Laser guided or IR???? Trying to ascertain what will follow Starstreak!!!!
 
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flamingknives       7/27/2007 10:26:59 AM
Streaky Bacon, the British SAMs are not laser guided in the sense that a seeker sees a laser spot on a target and heads for it.

They are either controlled by radio signals or are beam riders - the launcher projects a laser beam and the missile guidance keeps within the beam. As the sensors are at the back of the missile, they are not susceptible to aerothermal heating or anything the target can do
 
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streaky bacon       7/27/2007 10:31:16 AM
Ok now I understand alot better! Cheers FK!
 
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Herald1234       7/27/2007 11:16:37 AM

Streaky Bacon, the British SAMs are not laser guided in the sense that a seeker sees a laser spot on a target and heads for it.

They are either controlled by radio signals or are beam riders - the launcher projects a laser beam and the missile guidance keeps within the beam. As the sensors [receivers] are at the back of the missile, they are not susceptible to aerothermal heating or anything the target can do

Or the missile body blocking the telemetry signal as the launcher controller continuously autocorrects the missile to lead point  to the target. Coincidence tracking it is, and it WORKS. 

Sound familiar?

The British  aren't STUPID.

Herald
 
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