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Subject: F-22 and Air Defenses
N/A    5/10/2002 10:18:01 PM
The F-22, by the time it comes out in full force, will not be as invincible as it is now. By the time it has actually entered service, radar (yes, even the Russian kind) will be significantly more advanced and air defense missiles will have significantly increased range. By that time, the F-22s stealthiness and "shoot the enemy before he can see you" concept will still provide an advantage, but not as much as if it were put into service right now. The point is, by the time it is actually in US service, radar, missile, and air defense technology will have advanced to the point where they will have a pretty good chance of shooting down stealth aircraft.
 
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Thomas    RE:F-22 and Air Defenses    5/8/2003 5:03:37 AM
I think you should take the strategic view: The future threat is very few top-notch enemy fighters and very many old russian fighters. To use F-22 to kill 1960-70'ies designed russian aircraft (China, India for instance) is decidedly overkill. In the context of a layered air defence the F-22 even in small numbers make very much sense: 1. AAA guns and missiles on the ground among own and allied troops for real close air defence. 2. F-16 (perhaps with AMRAAM against big enemy bombers/transports), but maily sidewinder-type AIM to split up enemy formations and make attrition. 3. F-15 as a tactical reserve to mob up what the F-16's has left. 4. F-22 as a strategic reserve to stop gaps where the enemy might break through with sheer numbers and/or try and sneak a nasty bomber through (it would mean Fishbeds and that ilk are just chaff!). The F-35 will replace the F-16 and the F-22 the F-15, but the principle still applies. The long range and supercruise does make the F-22 perfect for the role. They can stay back in sufficient numbers and sprint to the spot. The stealth characteristic, in my view, is only essentitial in escort mission of B-2, where the B-2 is out to smash ICBM's in silos before they have a chance to fly. In this context the Missile Defence System makes sense, at only a limited number of ICBM's will actually be launched. Which is also why much of the critique of the MDS is misplaced.
 
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Thomas    RE:F-22 and Air Defenses    5/20/2003 7:08:31 AM
I sort of agree, that the F-22 will be shot down eventually; but if you notice I emphasize the RANGE and SPEED. The really revolutionary about the F-22 in my view is the possibility to have the tactical reserve IN THE AIR within distance to meddle with the nasty surprises the enemy has trapped your other planes in. Secondly: The F-22/F-35 combination will be at least one technological level above the opponent. The European Taifun is just being built; but so is the F-22, which is a whole generation more advanced.
 
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red star    RE:F-22 and Air Defenses    5/25/2003 3:11:09 PM
I agree with Thomas-pitching F-22 against Mig 21 is just stupid, but what is happenning at the moment. Thats wot gives many US militarists the false sense of superiority to everything else-when ur Raptor is destroying a SU15 made in the early 60s! But seeing that many countries won't have SU 35, Eurofighters or S300 SAM systems, the Raptor will rule.
 
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Thomas    RE:F-22 and Air Defenses    5/27/2003 3:47:12 AM
Red Star: You are on the brink of understanding - so back off. The Americans like to lead their wars and return home after a busy day at the office - and keep it that way. They will!
 
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Red Star v.2    RE:F-22 and Air Defenses    6/25/2003 2:49:11 PM
I suppose you like to have someone to argue with you-like me, the *devoted comrade*? I will make your day and i will back off!
 
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Soviet Spetsnaz    RE:F-22 and Air Defenses    7/7/2003 8:24:11 PM
The F/A-22 will be superior over obsolete old designs, and maybe be still a bit superior over most moder designs. But that doesn't gives it a huge advantage because there won't be more than 150 F/A-22's. An Su-30MKI armed with R74/R-78 and a proton generator can down the Raptor. The Su-30MKI is currently the best fighter. There will be Su-47's for export. Probably exported to India, China and in Russian service. So I think the F/A-22 would face some 300-400 Su-47 on the internation market wich are at least equal to it if not superior. Also, the S-400 system will be good for some surprises. And don't forget the Colchuga and VERA-E anti-stealth systems.
 
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Thomas    RE:F-22 and Air Defenses    7/8/2003 2:47:43 AM
The success of the F-22 hinges on a proper integration with other weaponssystems. As I se the F-22 - it is the tactical reserve IN THE AIR. It will not in the foreseable future meet the enemy alone. The number do not matter that much, as the numbers are supplied by other aircraft.
 
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LEO    RE:F-22 and Air Defenses    12/25/2003 10:25:40 PM
For every problem there is a solution, and if they didnt find a solution for the F-22 stealth Aircraft now they will later. and seriously i think that the S400 and S300 can do big damage. and thats why USA and other countries are scared that russia will sell those systems to IRAN syria and other countries. what is an F-16 F-18 F-22 - JSF F117 and even B-2 spirit do when they face those AD systems.
 
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Dancing Johnny    RE:F-22 and Air Defenses    12/26/2003 12:56:25 AM
What will happen is that the US will have the missile sites already maped out from Sat. recon. Then prior to aircraft entering airspace, a few cruise missiles (stealth ones by then) will take out the main radar dishes and other assosiated gear, leaving AD blind. The USAF isn't stupid enough to attack someone without trying to gain air-supremacy first.
 
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   RE:F-22 and Air Defenses    1/22/2004 3:08:22 AM
The stealth package on the F22 isnt designed to make it "invisible" to RADAR, its designed to greatly reduce the effective range of RADAR. An onboard detection and classification system, operating much like the SONAR systems on modern submarines, picks up on the noise emissions of an operational RADAR, identifies the source platform by comparing its unique signature to an onboard database, and from there determines the effective range of that RADAR versus the Raptor. Soooo, as ground-based detection systems improve, this window will grow, meaning the F22 will have to maintain an increasingly distant position versus the source emissions. However, our own BVR radar-guided missiles and standoff GPS-guided bombs will also improve, blessing the Rapotr with an ever increasing effective attack range. The result is self negation. Static surface-to-air defenses are obsolete; the sooner the USAF moves to an all-stealth force (something I think we will see in the next rhirty years), the sonner this will be proven.
 
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