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Subject: And they want to bin the A10?
Heorot    6/4/2003 5:58:43 AM
Have a look at this story of an A-10 that took massive damage over Baghdad and made it home safe, including some amazing pictures of the damage. Also equal opportunity rules: the pilot was a woman. /001-100/0016_A-10-battle-damage/story0016.htm
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Thomas    RE:And they want to bin the A10?   6/4/2003 6:37:48 AM
Easy now. To me it looks like an ordinary budget struggle in Pentagon - it all part of the game. The real issue is a replacement for the A-10
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WinsettZ    RE:And they want to bin the A10?   8/10/2003 2:20:56 PM
The nearest replacement is the modified JSF: It uses a 27mm cannon (when the 30mm is still good), and probably lacks the dual redundant systems and most everything else that makes the A10 fairly invincible to enemies on the ground. The JSF replacement is like a sleek fencer rather a boxer or a wrestler. It isn't designed to be shot up by dozens of 37mm cannons, fifty-cal and whatnot. For now it's still good. Maybe sell some to Israel..
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Interrested    RE:And they want to bin the A10?   9/5/2003 3:03:03 PM
The fire rate of the 27mm mauser is inferior to the 4000 r/min of the GAU-8/A 30. It fires round weighing in at less than 35% of the mm DU rounds of the GAU. The nozzle speed is very much lower, more than 15%. in short the 27mm mauser will not match the GAU in PUNCH!! Second, as the JSF will not be armored it will not be allowed to go strafing when things are really hot. The JSF will not have the tollerance to damage as the A10 has....more life the F16 If the JSF will replace the A10 it will have to be more "stand off" compared to the A10 (by the way most tank kill in GW1 were with it's Mavericks...)JDAM, SDB's and maybe even Brimstone. If it is to have a good combat persistence it will either have to give up it's steath advantage or it will have to use smal diameter weapons as mentioned before. (or even bat's?) In my humble opinion they should upgrade the A10 and stick with it for some years, it's low cost, highly durabel, easy maintenance and preforms outstanding, be it in GW1 ex Yugoslavia, Afganistan or performed brilliant. When the AH-* were grounded they were still flying and were just about the only effective CAS. Just food for thought: Imagine, a A10 with: -glass pit (better situational awereness) -Brimstone (eg 6 x 3 brimstone's) -Helmet cued aiming -Good defensive electronics -Enough chaff/flare's -Towed decoy etc etc Woulnd't this be nice, but ofcourse, the A10 is not a glamour toy,no "real"jet so no funding. Hope the marines or amry picks them up (or the guard or so)
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B.Smitty    RE:And they want to bin the A10?   9/11/2003 7:48:56 AM
Your notional upgrades will cost a ton of money. IIRC, it's already going to cost a billion or more just to keep the ageing A-10s flying for a while longer. Remember, the company that made them isn't even in business anymore. Also, strafing runs just aren't sound doctrine anymore in the face of MANPADs proliferation. They might still work against incompetent and ill-equipped foes like the Iraqis, but modern, well equipped, well-trained opponents will eat A-10s for breakfast.
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Interrested    RE:And they want to bin the A10?   9/12/2003 3:44:56 AM
Even in Iraq most A10 Kills were with the maverick, not the Gau 8. But as secondary weapon is really awsome... My preposed partial "glass"pit shouldn't be SO expensive, look at what the the UK did with the Jaguar. 2 LCD display's with: Stores list, moving map, threat display, Ir/Eo display etc etc will not break the bank. Again look at the brits..the jaguar has one big LCD display with it's old steam gauges next to it. A brimstone upgrade,to expensive...sigh look at UK again, the can install it in an old airframe like the tornado. They will probably do so as a stand alone system, so put the same system in a A10. A defensive suit is costly, but there are many of the shelve systems available, so it will be a low risk programm. Modern HMCD, again, the UK has intergrated it into their jaguar at a very low cost. Furthermore, I never heard that the A10 is such a burden to maintain. does anyone have hard data on this??? It sounds a bit strange as the A10 is a very simple airframe.... In short: I know upgrade cost money, but if you take the UK jaguar upgrade as an example you'll find out that it doesn't ahve to break the bank. I think the A10 has shown it's worth in EVERY campaign it has been used (GW1 Kosovo, Afghanistan GW2 etc), it's still the only aircraft that can loiter for a long time, take hits, and do the CAS job. it would be money well spent if you ask me.
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B.Smitty    RE:And they want to bin the A10?   9/12/2003 6:10:18 AM
I was off slightly. The Hog Up program, designed to extend the A-10s service life has a budget of $600 million. Look here for some details, They are also incorporating some of the things you're asking for in another A-10 modernization program. The biggest problem right now (which Hog Up aims to help with) is the age of the airframes.
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Heorot    RE:And they want to bin the A10?   9/12/2003 7:39:36 AM
True about the airframes. Maneuvering hard at low level takes it out of an airframe. I saw a program last week on the Red Arrow Hawks. Airframe maintenance is a contant worry with them. They showed a section of fuselage forward of the elevators and the skin was splitting apart and needed patching. Same risk throughout the airframe.
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Interrested    RE:And they want to bin the A10?   9/12/2003 11:55:30 AM
600 milion (couldn't find the figur but I must be missing it) over 240 airframe's is about 2.5 milion dollar a piece...with a total cost per copy (total lifetime) of about 13 milion (FY 98) If you want to quadrouple te hours of a airframe dollars is not much. Not when your also getting new engines, with a lower maintanance requirement and lower sfc. They will eventually pay for themselves. Anyways, 15.5 milion dollars (about) for a A10 is money well spent, for as I said earlier: The A10 does an outstanding (cas) job and has a very good track record. The US must thank their lucky stars that they've got it!!!
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B.Smitty    RE:And they want to bin the A10?   9/19/2003 7:18:58 AM
The A-10 is seriously deficient in thrust, electronics suite, and survivability in a high-threat environment. It needs a healthy dose of SEAD/DEAD from other platforms to have a chance of surviving vs. strong air defenses. Even MANPADS will relegate it to dropping LGBs from medium-altitude, just as they do with any manned aircraft. It can only perform CAS and limited air interdiction missions and is so pathetically slow that much of it's vaunted loiter time is often wasted transitioning from its base to the target area and back. That being said, they're still valuable for use in brushfire wars or after the battlefield has been prepared by proper SEAD/DEAD. Plus the cost to upgrade them to a 'reasonably' modern state doesn't appear to be too high. We just have to resist the urge to gold plate a bunch of ageing airframes.
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Siddar    RE:And they want to bin the A10?   12/27/2003 11:33:35 PM
Take the electronics and such of a Comanche helo and stuff it in a A10 it should fit and will bring A10 up to a exceptable cas standard for next 15 years.
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