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Subject: Most capable SAM at the moment
red star    5/25/2003 5:50:56 PM
I would bet my money on the S-300. Seeing that russia concentrated so much on SAMs and this is their best on-i do genuinly agre that even Patriot can't bat this sweety. But thats just my humble opinion. Wots urs?
 
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boris the romanian    RE:For Brock:Standard Block IV-Standard Block IVA-ERAM   2/8/2004 2:32:35 AM
WinsettZ, you think the most capable AAM is American? How do you figure? You don't honestly consider the AIM-9X the equal of the ASRAAM, the R-73M2 or the Python V, do you? In the medium range arena, the MICA and R-77 are as least as good as the AMRAAM (while the R-27 ER/ET series have a considerable range advantage) and, when it comes to long ranged AAMs, the R-37 is more or less the equal of the AIM-54C. I don't suppose the Americans have a rival to the Russian very long-range anti-AWACS weapon (the name escapes me, but it has a range of about 300km), do they?
 
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gf0012-aus    For Brock:Standard Block IV-Standard Block IVA-ERAM   2/8/2004 2:48:33 AM
Couple of factors though Boris which can impact on a LR strike on an E3 AWACs AWACs is typically able to sniff past 400k's and in some platforms ut is greater than that by a significant margin Will a LR anti-AWACs missile be at the end of its energy bleed at 300k's due to thrust then coast to intercept or is it 300k's on sustained energy to make a kinetic as well as explosive kill As soon as a hostile platform enetered the E3 sniff range the AWACs would be conducting it's own evasives, be it flight, electronic or calling in the cavalry, but certainly it would be attempting a sprint (lumbering though that may be) for cover and protection. No specs are even remotely avail for AIM-120C-8, - so capability is an unknown. What it does raise is the question of how AWACs and other airborne ELINT/SIGINT assets are armed if put in a known hostile and potentially compromised sector of airspace. Do they "carry" or do they rely on electronic guile? The creation of an ALI that intercepts AWACs killers could be a way around that particular problem.
 
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boris the romanian    RE:For Brock:Standard Block IV-Standard Block IVA-ERAM   2/8/2004 5:13:46 AM
I first heard about the LR anti-AWACS weapon reading "World Aircraft Information Files" where I saw a diagram of a Su-25 armed with three such weapons, along with four R-77s and two R-73s (Sorbtsyia ECM pods on the wingtip pylons). Against a target of such value as an AWACS, you'd probably be firing more than one missle, and I really doubt the poor E-3 would be capable of dodging three or four of those incoming monsters. In that article it also said that an extra-long ranged variant was being developed, with an additional booster. I think lobbing a few of those missles in at the start of every engagement (by a dedicated "shooter" aircraft) will really cause panic and confusion amingst the enemy, and if the AWACS DOES get shot down when it's most needed, the ensuing confusion could prove disastrous (particularly if you still have your AWACS). The latest AIM-120C-8 specs aren't available, but then neither are those for the later mark R-77s. Something tells me that the R-77 will still be superior in the range department (it's a bigger missle), so it will all come down to the seeker (i've read in that magazine/encyclopedia that the Malaysians were very pleased with theirs).
 
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boris the romanian    RE:For Brock:Standard Block IV-Standard Block IVA-ERAM   2/8/2004 5:14:54 AM
"I saw a diagram of a Su-25 armed with three such weapons, along with four R-77s and two R-73s (Sorbtsyia ECM pods on the wingtip pylons)." I meant to say Su-35,
 
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gf0012-aus    Standard Block IV-Standard Block IVA-ERAM - Su-25   2/8/2004 5:28:00 AM
I was wondering about the capability of that Frogfoot for a moment. For one brief shining moment I thought that there was a new threat platform to be considered. ;) Don't get me wrong, I'm not dismissing russian missiles, I'm saying that there is no guarantee that a long shoot aimed at an AWACs is a given kill. Multiple shots of course is a completely diff issue, and I would assume that any OPFOR would be completely committed to killing an AWACs threat ahead of blunting traditional assets.
 
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Bob    RE:Standard Block IV-Standard Block IVA-ERAM - Su-25   2/8/2004 8:14:04 PM
I'm sure if the threat arised from such a long range missile, we could find a way for the E-3 to employ the ALE 50 or 55 decoys.
 
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boris the romanian    RE:Standard Block IV-Standard Block IVA-ERAM - Su-25   2/8/2004 9:07:29 PM
These decoys would mean the E-3 would have to turn off its radar (the missle has a dual active/passive seeker), and it could not respond too effectively with ECM because of the "home-on-jam" feature. But, suppose the decoys are employed, you still get almost the same effect: the radar coverage is lost, and with it, its command capability. The "soft kill" effect would still prove to be a great disadvantage (but perhaps not as damaging as the "hard kill" because there is less morale penalty). And if i were the commander, i'd dedicate an entire schwarm (i think you americans refer to them as "flights") to take the AWACS out. The Su-35/37 can carry five of those missiles while still carrying R-77s and R-73s. 5x4=20 missiles. hmmmmmm.....decoys or no decoys, i still don't like the AWACS chances
 
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gf0012-aus    Swarming - Boris   2/8/2004 9:23:54 PM
[And if i were the commander, i'd dedicate an entire schwarm (i think you americans refer to them as "flights") to take the AWACS out. The Su-35/37 can carry five of those missiles while still carrying R-77s and R-73s. 5x4=20 missiles. hmmmmmm.....decoys or no decoys, i still don't like the AWACS chance] Thats the kind of nightmare that an AWACs driver doesn't want.
 
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Bob    RE:Standard Block IV-Standard Block IVA-ERAM - Su-25   2/9/2004 3:36:02 AM
the decoys transmit jamming signals (at least the ALE-55 does) which will protect the aircraft from HOJ. If the "red" commander is going to dedicate a whole swarm to taking out an AWACS, he's going to have to contend with the fighter sweep / intercept packages that're inevitably going to be sent to take out that swarm and achieve air superiority within the first hours of a conflict. I just really don't see any US high value assets like an AWACS or a tanker being lost to anything other than a lucky shot or a catastrophic blunder like the 117 over Kosovo, simply because, to the US, all these hyped up, "top-notch" Russian systems can hope to do is put a small ding in the initial phase of a future conflict. Not only will they not be procured in anywhere close to the numbers necessary to contend with the US (just how many squadrons of "cold plasma" stealth Flankers or Mig 1.44s, Grumble battallions, and R-77s can a North Korea or a China afford to both purchase and then immediately lose?), but they're just no match for the American systems and the many levels of redundancy we employ, not to mention our superior training and tactics. At least, not yet.
 
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boris the romanian    RE:Standard Block IV-Standard Block IVA-ERAM - Su-25   2/9/2004 5:21:11 AM
Bob, I didn't say that the schwarm tasked with taking out the AWACS would be on its own. I agree the AWACS escort would have to be dealt with, but you have to remember two things; 1st, the anti-AWACS missile (to which america still has no answer) can launch from over 300km (more like 350 with the external booster). that's approaching the limits of the AWACS detection range. I doubt the AWACS will have sufficient time to vector in the interceptors before the first missiles come screaming in. Remember, their initial phase is passive, so the AWACS still has to detect them (a much smaller RCS compared to the Flanker). I doubt the missiles will be detected before they're within, say 250km. 2nd, There will be an AWACS escort, but the "shooters" are quite capable when it comes to self-defence (the R-77 OUTRANGES the AMRAAM, remember?), plus the "shooters" would be themselves escorted by additional schwarms and, hopefully, have their own AWACS support. I completely agree with you, all this fancy gear is next to useless unless well crewed, but the point i was trying to make was that an AWACS platform would be very vunerable to such an attack if it is correctly executed. P.S. I hope you understand that when i say a Schwarm of Flankers I don't mean a literal "swarm" but a unit of four aircraft
 
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