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Subject: Beware an angry China
DragonReborn    4/8/2008 4:32:15 PM
h!!p://www.iht.com/articles/2008/04/08/opinion/edbowring.php Here's a pretty good article on why China should not be goaded too harshly about Tibet and Darfur etc, what does everyone think!? P.s Im no PRC Troll! "Tibetans have a strong case against Beijing. But mixing it in with the Olympics and Darfur is a red rag to a wounded young bull. Nationalism is more often aroused by setbacks than success, so the Tibet problems and the possible threats to a triumphal Olympics are stirring it in China. On the horizon is the possibility that these will combine with high inflation, stagnating exports and trade tensions with the United States to create a perfect nationalistic storm. The Chinese leadership faces a difficult balancing act. As its legitimacy is now based on national achievement, not communist ideology, it must appear in step with popular feeling. Yet stability at home and good relations abroad require keeping nationalist emotions in check. The paranoia about evil foreign designs that thrived under Mao and was discarded by Deng Xiaoping is still close to the surface. Almost all of China is offended that foreigners are so keen to lecture them and to encourage the petty boycotts that could spoil the Olympic party. It genuinely infuriates the Chinese that they are blamed for Darfur while their Western critics occupy Iraq. Beijing is happy to let such nationalist resentments vent in the sometimes violent language of Internet blogs and chat rooms. The anger, in turn, makes it easier for the government to pin the Tibetan problems on foreigners and Tibetan exiles headed by the Dalai Lama, to arrest human-rights advocates and crack down on foreign media. Beijing plays up the foreign threat - much like the U.S. government used the Al Qaeda threat as a justification for invading Iraq. For example, Beijing has raised the specter of Tibetan suicide squads organized by the "Dalai Lama clique" attacking the Olympics. Such acts cannot be ruled out. But a cooler government would quietly strengthen defenses rather than raise the temperature - and raise fears that terrorist outrages might be staged to discredit the Tibetans. Under pressure, officials have fallen back on Cultural Revolution language and lies. The Communist Party secretary in Tibet described the Dalai Lama as a "monster with a human face." Less dramatically, Prime Minister Wen Jiabao said that the channel for dialogue with the Dalai Lama was open so long as he "abandoned claims for Tibet independence" and used his influence to "stop the violence in Tibet." In fact the Dalai Lama long ago accepted the principle of autonomy within China, so long as it was real autonomy. And he is at odds with many Tibetans who oppose his advocacy of peaceful means. Equally important is the way official Chinese media has depicted the violence in Tibet as attacks on Han Chinese. This predictably arouses the hackles of the Han, who comprise 90 percent of China's population, and who tend to view Tibet as a backwater they improve by their modernizing drive. They see no reason why Tibetans should be unhappy with Han migration and dominance of trade, and they resent that Tibetans do not feel grateful for the money poured in by the government. "The Communist Party is like a parent to the Tibetan people and is always considerate about what the children need," declared the Tibet party secretary. The party, he said, was the "real Buddha" for Tibetans. This racial/cultural aspect not only makes it even more difficult for China to resolve minority issues, it also raises the Han identity issue in a wider, international context. Racial mythology as well as cultural identity run strong, whether vis-à-vis immediate "barbarian" neighbors - be they Japanese, Mongol or Russian - or toward the Westerners who long lorded it over the Middle Kingdom. How will the Chinese react if the Olympics really do become noted more for demonstrations and boycotts by Tibetan-inspired foreigners than for the achievements of China's athletes and organizers? At whom will popular anger then be directed? If the party is spoiled, whether by Tibet or air pollution, the demand for top level scapegoats may be irresistible. Worse still is if this coincides with heightened trade tensions with the United States, which could arise as the U.S. economy enters a recession. If the Chinese come to perceive that the benefits of globalization have peaked, will the leadership retreat from 30 years of Deng-ist engagement? None of this has to happen. But ethnic pride and thwarted ambitions are powerful forces. It is worth recalling that foreign economic pressures, patriotic fervor and rising military power made a once liberal Japan into the expansionist, militarist and hyper-nationalist Japan of the 1930s. Tibetans have a strong case against Beijing. But mixing it in with the Olympics and Darfur is a red rag to a wounded young bull."
 
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YelliChink       4/17/2008 2:06:12 PM


How does Chinese culture address "capitalism" which is the third Western ideology?

Herald


Capitalism is second nature of Chinese. Guess why are all NE Asia nations so successful in global trade today.... mmm......

It wasn't put straight in both Confucius and Lao Tze, but the idea is there. The Chinese word for "dictatorship" is derived from "monopolizing people's business" after a disposed King in Zhou Dynasty (guess why he got disposed in the first place). In Song Dynasty, roughly 1100 years ago, a high ranking bureaucrat tried to do some reform by increasing government involvement in all aspects of economic activities to enhance efficiency and social justice. The result was (more) rampant corruption and a failed economy, so "the conservatives" rolled it back and no one ever talked about that again. After all, Chinese invented trade mark, paper money, money order and developed banking independently. There are documents say that fishing boats were owned by local companies who collect investment and trade stock like Ismael saw when he tried to get on Pequod with Queequeg.

Though, slavery of Southern plantation style didn't take place in China for at least 1500 years. There wasn't shortage of man-power, and whereever more labor was needed, somebody invented something. By Ming and Qing law, it is possible for someone to sell his son or daughter, but in the form of life-time labor. They are still individuals and can buy their own freedom back. This is a completely different form of slavery to the West. The Great Walls were built by soldiers, criminals who were sentenced to hard labor, conscripted short-term labor and paid skill worker. Tax during imperial China took two forms: monetary and labor. While monetary can be in the form of gold/silver, paper money, rolls of silk and buckets of rice, labor was conscripted from ordinary people (usually peasants and workers) for short term government projects. Labors can not be conscripted during certain times of a year, and not over certain period.
 
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Nanheyangrouchuan       4/17/2008 5:35:28 PM
"600 yrs ago, when a few dozen of black slaves were sent to a Chinese harbor as a gift from an African kingdom, they were set free because Chinese people could not understand why the some human being have to be treated like animals. This was hundreds yrs before Abraham Lincoln was born"

600 years ago China had plenty of slaves inside of its borders as well as human tribute sent from the periphery nations and then as now there was a very negative opinion held towards anyone who was dark (most of the world) or hairy (middle easterners and europeans).

A joke I've heard in China revolves around who is less evolved, hairy Caucasians or black people.

China is run by thugs and goons and has been turning out defective and poisoned junk for 50  years.

Go Cafferty!!!!

 
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Zhang Fei       4/17/2008 9:32:26 PM
lz: 600 yrs ago, when a few dozen of black slaves were sent to a Chinese harbor as a gift from an African kingdom, they were set free because Chinese people could not understand why the some human being have to be treated like animals. This was hundreds yrs before Abraham Lincoln was born

China had plenty of non-deformed looking (as Africans appeared to the Chinese) and docile slaves in-country. In fact, the Ming dynasty's invasion and conquest of Yunnan had recently yielded a massive bounty of slaves. Zheng He started his career as a castrated slave. This stuff about Abraham Lincoln is just strange. Slavery existed worldwide during Lincoln's era (and indeed, has existed since antiquity around the world), including in China. Up until the Communist victory in 1949, Chinese were selling their wives and children into slavery. And when the Communists won in 1949, all of China was enslaved, with Communist party members as the slavemasters. The entire nation worked in exchange for being fed (via ration coupons) and the very homes they lived in were stolen by their slavemasters, who became the new aristocracy with summary powers over life-and-death that no previous dynasty had ever exercised.
 
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Softwar    China Supports the 21st Century Slave Trade   4/18/2008 8:58:07 AM
"600 yrs ago, when a few dozen of black slaves were sent to a Chinese harbor as a gift from an African kingdom, they were set free because Chinese people could not understand why the some human being have to be treated like animals. This was hundreds yrs before Abraham Lincoln was born"
 
Of course, this would explain why China supports the current regime in Sudan which operates a massive slave trade operation in Dafur.  So - how much does a Dafur slave boy or girl cost in oil headed for the Beijing Olympics?
 
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YelliChink       4/18/2008 11:02:39 AM

China had plenty of non-deformed looking (as Africans appeared to the Chinese) and docile slaves in-country. In fact, the Ming dynasty's invasion and conquest of Yunnan had recently yielded a massive bounty of slaves. Zheng He started his career as a castrated slave. This stuff about Abraham Lincoln is just strange. Slavery existed worldwide during Lincoln's era (and indeed, has existed since antiquity around the world), including in China. Up until the Communist victory in 1949, Chinese were selling their wives and children into slavery. And when the Communists won in 1949, all of China was enslaved, with Communist party members as the slavemasters. The entire nation worked in exchange for being fed (via ration coupons) and the very homes they lived in were stolen by their slavemasters, who became the new aristocracy with summary powers over life-and-death that no previous dynasty had ever exercised.
The dominating race in Yunnan area used to be Thai people. Chinese chronicles recorded them as "Dien," and the character is still used as abbreviate for Yunnan. There are still some ethnic Thais in Yunnan, and their custom is almost identical to their southern siblings. However, Thai people are not originated from modern Thailand. A majority of Thai people migrated through Laos and Burma and settled around Bangkok area, defeating Khmer empire. This is probably why Thai people are not very popular among Indochina nations. And don't blame Han Chinese on this, because it was Mongols who drove them out. After Mongols were driven out of China, the Yunnan King of Mongol Empire was the target of Ming. After defeating the Mongol king, Ming set up local administrations for each ethnic groups who submit allegiance to royal court. The administrations are more like communication offices, and locals still run their own business as usual. However, a stronger tribe tried to annihilate others, so weaker ones called for help from much more powerful Ming. Some of these administrative zones latter become independent countries such as Laos and Burma, while weaker Yi, Miao, Yiao (all are kind of Hmong people) tribes remained in China.

Eunuchs are one of the most ugliest thing in Chinese history. While they may be slaves in the form of royal servants, some eunuchs gained tremendous power and wealth through their service. Some emperors don't trust anybody except their own eunuchs. Ming Dynasty even established an agency run by eunuchs to monitor high ranking bureaucrats. Which makes me wonder why the third emperor of Ming commissioned an eunuch as commander-in-chief of the Grand Fleet.

 
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l144527z       4/19/2008 12:37:00 AM
No need to argue with those Cafferty-like racists in this forum. Full of make-up stories, distorted facts in their shameless statement. The more you attack a country and their people, the higher fear you are showing towards them. It's really pathetic when US is going downslope, many of the citizens are still daydreaming of the only superpower in 21st century. How many of you will be in the panic of being laid off in the next few yrs, simply for your country is less and less competitive? Daydreaming combined with arrogance and ignorance can only send this country to an end faster.
 
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YelliChink       4/19/2008 8:03:40 AM

No need to argue with those Cafferty-like racists in this forum. Full of make-up stories, distorted facts in their shameless statement. The more you attack a country and their people, the higher fear you are showing towards them. It's really pathetic when US is going downslope, many of the citizens are still daydreaming of the only superpower in 21st century. How many of you will be in the panic of being laid off in the next few yrs, simply for your country is less and less competitive? Daydreaming combined with arrogance and ignorance can only send this country to an end faster.

Get a life, would you?
 
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Herald12345       4/19/2008 8:22:39 AM

No need to argue with those Cafferty-like racists in this forum. Full of make-up stories, distorted facts in their shameless statement. The more you attack a country and their people, the higher fear you are showing towards them. It's really pathetic when US is going downslope, many of the citizens are still daydreaming of the only superpower in 21st century. How many of you will be in the panic of being laid off in the next few yrs, simply for your country is less and less competitive? Daydreaming combined with arrogance and ignorance can only send this country to an end faster.
Practice the ways of peace stooge. Dreams of empire are a chimera.

You will also find that a free  people doesn't take orders from Beijing, buffoon.

For example:

You, specifically, are the defender of a hegemonist imperialist colonialist power currently engaged in ecological sabotage of its own range, and of deliberately raping and pillaging such countries as Nigeria and the Sudan  where the acquiescent allow the PRC bandits to partner with their stooge pet puppet regimes to commit mass democide.

No surprise, as this is essentially the colonialist model as PRC bandits, including  you, little yapper adopt to steal oil and slaves. You prey upon the weak and helpless.

How is that different from the rape and pillage racist colonialist European imperialism that your great Sun Yat sen opposed when he tried to modernize China, you dog?

What are you going to do about these FACTS?

Demand an apology, little yapper?

Apologize for the truth................................NEVER.

Learn the ways of peace, you little running dog..........before someone leashes you.


Herald
 
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Zhang Fei       4/19/2008 9:48:30 PM
lz: No need to argue with those Cafferty-like racists in this forum. Full of make-up stories, distorted facts in their shameless statement. The more you attack a country and their people, the higher fear you are showing towards them. It's really pathetic when US is going downslope, many of the citizens are still daydreaming of the only superpower in 21st century. How many of you will be in the panic of being laid off in the next few yrs, simply for your country is less and less competitive? Daydreaming combined with arrogance and ignorance can only send this country to an end faster.

Jack Cafferty is many things, but racist is not of these things. He is pretty much a standard issue media left-winger. As to made-up stories, I have to say that I have taken at face value the factual portions of some of your anecdotes. It's hard for me to figure out whether they are true or merely the product of some Chinese hagiographer's imagination. And Chinese history is replete with hagiography. (My favorite piece of hagiography is the bit where Liu Bei supposedly got the submission of the Nanman's, something that isn't part of Chinese history, but has merged with history in the popular Chinese imagination. What's more likely, of course, is that he massacred them in the finest Chinese tradition).

I understand China doesn't like getting negative feedback, but it's a little hypocritical for the Chinese to bridle at criticism. China's textbooks and mass media are filled with hysterical attacks on the West. The whole Chinese world view is that the West grew rich only because it looted China during the 19th and 20th centuries. Chinese programs are filled with vituperative attacks on the West. In the wake of 9/11, Chinese TV stations put together propaganda programs stating that the US deserved to get hit. Chinese journalists being escorted around Manhattan by the State Department actually applauded as the buildings collapsed on live TV.

As to fear driving criticism, this must be some kind of weird Chinese logic. If we feared China, we wouldn't criticize it. Plenty of China's neighbors won't be caught on record criticizing it. But at the street level, lots of citizens are just as vociferous about China's domineering ways, as their leaders are careful about avoiding China's wrath. Take it from me - if we feared China, we wouldn't be criticizing it. (The one concession China's neighbors won't make is to terminate their strong military relations with the US - their fear of Chinese territorial encroachments leads them to embrace the US as the ultimate guarantor of their sovereignty. Even as they criticize the US freely in public, because the US government, unlike China's, doesn't penalize countries for mere criticism).

This stuff about Uncle Sam being on a downslope because of China is a little overwrought. Decades before we had little trinkets assembled in China, we used to have them assembled in Korea, Taiwan, Malaysia, Singapore, Thailand, and so on. The reason American companies are assembling products in China is because Chinese wages are way cheaper than the wages of any of the other countries mentioned. Made in China stickers don't mean that China is in good shape - it means that China is terrible shape, along with Bangladesh, Pakistan, India and the host of other countries that do assembly work on the cheap. When Chinese company products start having a Made in Thailand label, that's the point at which China will have overtaken Thailand. And when Chinese company products start having a Made in USA label - well, you get the idea. (Although my personal favorite is this measure by Conrad of the Gweilo Diaries - when Thai hookers start showing up in Beijing and underpricing their Chinese counterparts rather than Chinese hookers showing up in Bangkok and underpricing their Thai counterparts, then China will have arrived - just past Thailand's level of development).

On the subject of competitiveness, I think you will find that certain American industries lost their competitiveness the moment the shipping container was invented (by an American, no less). The 50 years since represent the growing recognition of this fact - that low end assembly will always belong to less wealthy countries. Unless we adopt Chinese economic policies, we are never going to be competitive at making nail clippers, flip flops, hair bands, or hand-recycling toxic waste. In other areas, I think China has a lot of catching up to do. Wake me up when China overtakes Thailand.
 
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Softwar       4/21/2008 9:19:46 AM

No need to argue with those Cafferty-like racists in this forum. Full of make-up stories, distorted facts in their shameless statement. The more you attack a country and their people, the higher fear you are showing towards them. It's really pathetic when US is going downslope, many of the citizens are still daydreaming of the only superpower in 21st century. How many of you will be in the panic of being laid off in the next few yrs, simply for your country is less and less competitive? Daydreaming combined with arrogance and ignorance can only send this country to an end faster.


It is typical of you to play the "racist" card when it is clear that the real target here is the communist leadership and the PLA.  If we are so very racist - they why do we support our allies in the Pacific - Japan, South Korea, Taiwan?  Indeed, why would I support the LAOGAI foundation or freedom activists inside China?  Why do many here scold others who openly call for the total destruction of China - while we point out the biggest victim of oppression is the Chinese people themselves?
 
To play such a tired argument speaks of your desperation and says volumes about your capability to withstand the withering political climate that is blowing into Beijing.  Which is the point - the THUGS who brutalize your nation are the same ones who threaten world peace - the CCP and the PLA leadership.  In fact, your government is based on the failed design of a GERMAN - Karl Marx, and you call yourself Chinese?  Hah!
 
Totalitarian regimes are being heaped upon the dustbin of history and yours is following suit - its only a matter of time.  We are anticipating either and explosion or implosion.  The PLA warlords want to explode upon Taiwan as a means to divert attention away from their corrupt leadership.  Three US carrier battlegroups recently put that gambit into a losing scenario.  Thus, your forces backed down.
 
An implosion means your government will collaspe like the Soviet Empire. 
 
We don't really care about super-power status - after 40 plus years staring eyeball to eyeball with the Soviet Empire - your challenge is pathetic.  The growth of our GNP last year was larger than your ENTIRE GNP.  You don't have carriers, or a battle tested armed forces.  Heck, you are just now coming out of the 1960s in jet designs - most of which you stole from the Russians.
 
So who is dreaming of world conquest here?  Your facist ravings certainly sound like a trumpet call that no one is following.  So - if you want to hurl insults - fine.  If you want to plan for your future - stash some of those Yuan in a Swiss bank (like your PLA warlords) and get a seat on a plane bound for Sudan or the DPRK.  When the CCP falls - you will be in a very difficult position indeed.
 
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