You clearly are ignorant in your responses, ill informed and obviously not ready to accept anything that does not fit your version of the truth. The mere fact that I live with black people and you dispute that makes it obvious that it is not worth debating with you. You dispute facts. In a last ditched effort to keep this debate going on a principal of fact I will try and point out some of the issues you are mistaken about or might not have thought about. I will not respond to your personal references because I cannot state my position more clearly than I have. The TRC is not wrong about the third force. The third force was exposed as being the BSB (Burgelike Samewerking Buro). It was a small group of whites and ex ANC members (ASKARI’S) who were responsible for attacks on several ANC leaders and members. The majority of people however killed in the 80’s died in the townships by necklacings and other forms of execution. That was not classified as third force activities because it was openly propagated by the ANC that they were responsible for those acts of violence. This response of yours is quite interesting. “When a generation in Soweto lost their schooling due to being shot up for peacefully protesting against being forced to learn Afrikaans, and the subsequent riots because of this?” Quite true, legislation was proposed to force blacks to be schooled in Afrikaans. This was however never implemented; the idea was abandoned after the Soweto riots. Today Afrikaners face the same legislation with Afrikaans schools and university’s being forced to adopt English. The major deference being that the legislation has already been adopted and implemented. This is not just to learn English but also to be taught in English. “You know, I've been all over Africa. Kenya, Tanzania, Malawi, Zambia, Botswana, etc.” I’ve been to all of the above several times, may I add Mozambique, Namibia, Zimbabwe, Uganda, DRC, Egypt and Somalia to my African list. I agree that in these countries I have found people to be very friendly and crime does not seem to take on the horrible dimensions we have in South Africa. I do however feel that many of these countries have had a much more violent past as compared to South Africa and that in most of them with maybe the exception of Botswana black people are still living in much worse conditions than what is facing black people in South Africa. So your contention for the levels of violent crime is not correct. “And the causal factor is the centuries of twisted evil called apartheid.” It sound very dramatic but is factually also not correct. Apartheid existed in South Africa from 1948 to 1994. You should know that. “But don't give me numbers relating deaths under apartheid to deaths by criminal acts today, and say that things are worse now than they were then for the average citizen.” As for the numbers my friend I am afraid they don’t lie. If you don’t like them that is unfortunate but it is the truth nonetheless.

RE:WHITE PEOPLE FLEE!!!!!!!!! 1/31/2004 2:02:16 PM ”You clearly are ignorant in your responses, ill informed and obviously not ready to accept anything that does not fit your version of the truth.” Again, invective without substance behind it from the “liberal” Afrikaner without a name. Let me quote from your earlier post: “Keep personal insults out of this forum, because it only reflects badly on your ability to debate an issue intelligently.” Preacher, heal thyself. “The mere fact that I live with black people and you dispute that makes it obvious that it is not worth debating with you. You dispute facts.” Could you bring yourself to understand, that your word does not equal “fact” in the message board world, and therefore needs to be substantiated? ”The TRC is not wrong about the third force. The third force was exposed as being the BSB (Burgelike Samewerking Buro).” BSB/AWB/most right wing groups at the time had extensive ties with the security apparatus. You’re acting the weasel again by not pointing out that the BSB was basically a white supremacist organisation and instead saying “some whites and some ex-ANC.” Perhaps the truth, but certainly not the whole truth, is it? “The majority of people however killed in the 80’s died in the townships by necklacings and other forms of execution. That was not classified as third force activities because it was openly propagated by the ANC that they were responsible for those acts of violence.” There you go, playing weasel again. Why are you trying to imply that I brought up the “Third Force” issue in response to “necklacing” deaths? You know full well that I brought up the state role and “Third Force” role in response to your statement below: “In 1988 at the height of apartheid some 10000 people were killed in what was essentially a civil war. Now if you are to be believed, this happened while the security forces fueled the violence and furthermore did nothing to stop it.” You consistently deny the role of the security forces in the civil-war like violence that gripped the country in the late 1980’s, so I’ll have to physically retype from the .pdf TRC report regarding the ANC-IFP to point out your fallacies: “Evidence before its Committees and documents in its possession have shown that the IFP participated in State-sponsored violence and acted as a surrogate for the state against the ANC and its allies. It also sought and received training and arms from the security forces which assisted it in forming death squads. Furthermore, evidence shows that members of the IFP and KwaZulu police leadership knew of and participated in the planning of the violence…” Is it clear now? Would you like to retract your “facts” quoted below from your earlier posts? You said: “”The police, of course, never tried to stop the violence” (capitalist72) This could not be further from the truth.” (No Name) ”This response of yours is quite interesting. “When a generation in Soweto lost their schooling due to being shot up for peacefully protesting against being forced to learn Afrikaans, and the subsequent riots because of this?”” Quite true, legislation was proposed to force blacks to be schooled in Afrikaans. This was however never implemented; the idea was abandoned after the Soweto riots.” If it’s interesting, perhaps you’d like to revisit the context it was put in – that of being one of the causal factors the apartheid regime contributed to the situation of crime in the country today? “Today Afrikaners face the same legislation with Afrikaans schools and university’s being forced to adopt English. The major deference being that the legislation has already been adopted and implemented. This is not just to learn English but also to be taught in English.” Afrikaans can be treated the same way as Zulu, Xhosa, or any other native language of South Africa. “You know, I've been all over Africa. Kenya, Tanzania, Malawi, Zambia, Botswana, etc.” I’ve been to all of the above several times, may I add Mozambique, Namibia, Zimbabwe, Uganda, DRC, Egypt and Somalia to my African list.” Since we’re competing, let me add Egypt, Ethiopia, Zims, Mauritius to my list too. And then let’s start counting the non-African countries…….or maybe let’s not. “I agree that in these countries I have found people to be very friendly and crime does not seem to take on the horrible dimensions we have in South Africa.” We’re talking about racism, not crime. Don’t lose sight of the subject matter. Don’t change the subject. Try to respond clearly to why I brought up my African travels….read it properly and you’ll realise it had nothing to do with crime. I said, the racist element you see in South Africa against whites today is caused by the generations of Apartheid, and once the generation untainted by that evil regime and its supporters are left, you will not find this racism anymore…after all, look at the rest of Africa, where you do not find it.

”You clearly are ignorant in your responses, ill informed and obviously not ready to accept anything that does not fit your version of the truth.” If this is a personal insult your comments would equate to blasphemy, hate speech and racism all rolled into one. Common get real. BSB/AWB/most right wing groups at the time had extensive ties with the security apparatus. You’re acting the weasel again by not pointing out that the BSB was basically a white supremacist organization and instead saying “some whites and some ex-ANC.” Perhaps the truth, but certainly not the whole truth, is it? Find me a credible source, which states that the National Party Government or the security services supported any white supremacist party. You might have had members of the security services secretly belonging to the AWB, but that the Government or security services supported them is ludicrous. As for the whole truth about the BSB. The BSB was never a political party, it was a covert security forces operation to eliminate the ANC leadership. Its existence was only discovered in the middle 1990’s. Afrikaans can be treated the same way as Zulu, Xhosa, or any other native language of South Africa. If the other ethnic groups in the country want to be schooled in English it is their right, no problem. We want to be schooled in our own language. In a true democracy this issue would not even be debatable. “Since we’re competing, let me add Egypt, Ethiopia, Zims, Mauritius to my list too. And then let’s start counting the non-African countries…….or maybe let’s not.” I would love nothing more than to start counting non African countries but alas, you will only turn around and say prove it as you did with the issue of myself living with black friends. We’re talking about racism, not crime. Don’t lose sight of the subject matter. Don’t change the subject. Try to respond clearly to why I brought up my African travels….read it properly and you’ll realise it had nothing to do with crime. I said, the racist element you see in South Africa against whites today is caused by the generations of Apartheid, and once the generation untainted by that evil regime and its supporters are left, you will not find this racism anymore…after all, look at the rest of Africa, where you do not find it. Maybe no racism against whites simply because that with the exception for Namibia there are almost no whites left in Africa. The few whites left in Zimbabwe are being taken care of as I write this response. As for racism in other African countries it is alive and well. Just remind yourself of the ethnic conflicts on this continent and the millions who have died in genocide and wars solely on the basis of ethnicity. Then there is also the intense dislike for Indian and Chinese people all over Central and Southern Africa. What contention are you referring to? I was talking about the “reverse-racist” element that you brought up. Exactly. ‘There you go again…..focusing on irrelevant semantics instead of the substance. Do you want to say that there was no “apartheid-like” situation prior to ’48? There were no segregated facilities? All citizens were treated equally? Did Malan come in and change everything around?’ Yip, no worse that any other colony under British rule. Lastly, you know I have heard that scientists at SETI (Search for Extra Terrestrial Intelligence) think that humans might only me able to communicate with aliens through science and math’s seeing that it is a universal language. Now if you ask an alien what is worse 10000 deaths or 30000 deaths he will get the answer right. My question to you is WHAT PLANET ARE YOU FROM THAT YOU DON’T EVEN UNDERSTAND THIS MOST BASIC FORM OF MATH.

You are funny, No Name, on how you selectively respond to only parts of the post where you feel you can still be slippery, and totally ignore those parts where your fallacies are exposed and pinned down and you can't wiggle out. Anyone who reads my last post, and then sees which parts you have responded to, can understand this clearly. "If this is a personal insult your comments would equate to blasphemy, hate speech and racism all rolled into one. Common get real." Like I said earlier, invective without substance. "BSB/AWB/most right wing groups at the time had extensive ties with the security apparatus." Find me a credible source, which states that the National Party Government or the security services supported any white supremacist party. You might have had members of the security services secretly belonging to the AWB, but that the Government or security services supported them is ludicrous." How do you define "extensive ties?" It is common knowledge that the many of the AWB, etc..were ex-army, ex-police. Also, one of the parts of my previous post which you conveniently decided not to respond to, or admit you were wrong on as a man of character should, showed a credible source talking about the security forces supporting the IFP violence. That is the same thing the BSB ws involved in. That was also a right wing agenda. But you cannot see the links, apparently. "As for the whole truth about the BSB. The BSB was never a political party, it was a covert security forces operation to eliminate the ANC leadership." Make up your mind on what you were saying. "Its existence was only discovered in the middle 1990’s." See no evil, hear no evil..... "If the other ethnic groups in the country want to be schooled in English it is their right, no problem. We want to be schooled in our own language. In a true democracy this issue would not even be debatable." Knock yourself out - do it with your own money though, not government funds. "you will only turn around and say prove it as you did with the issue of myself living with black friends." Here's the question you didn't respond to: "Tell me, how did the blacks live as compared to you? (As a matter of fact I lived with them and still do but has nothing to do with this debate)" I wanted to know how you lived with blacks in equal conditions during Apartheid, when the Group Areas Act was in place. You avoid answering specific questions and then wonder why your "facts" are not accepted. "Maybe no racism against whites simply because that with the exception for Namibia there are almost no whites left in Africa." Everywhere in Africa I've travelled has plenty of whites, none complaining of racism. Any black from an African country who travelled to South Africa during apartheid complained of the racism. "The few whites left in Zimbabwe are being taken care of as I write this response." Yes - political issue by a tyrant. "As for racism in other African countries it is alive and well. Just remind yourself of the ethnic conflicts on this continent and the millions who have died in genocide and wars solely on the basis of ethnicity." You and your moving targets.....racism is different from tribalism. Now you want to begin discussing tribalism? "Then there is also the intense dislike for Indian and Chinese people all over Central and Southern Africa." That's nothing serious. I've spent many years in several southern and eastern African countries - you hear a comment in a crowd once in a while, but that's it. You have some gall to equate this to the brutal physical racism that your people perpetrated in South Africa. "‘There you go again…..focusing on irrelevant semantics instead of the substance. Do you want to say that there was no “apartheid-like” situation prior to ’48? There were no segregated facilities? All citizens were treated equally? Did Malan come in and change everything around?’ Yip, no worse that any other colony under British rule." You are poor at comprehending simple English. My original point was that blacks had been subjugated for centuries. You tried to get semantical about it and started mentioning "apartheid only lasted for 50 years." I answered, as quoted above, why are you getting semantical when the point about subjugation is not affected by your statement. And you reply by avoiding the point once more...maybe you just don't get it. I think those English lessons for Afrikaners are needed very badly. As for your rambling about martians below, answer the questions I posed earlier when you brought this up. Don't keep repeating the same things without responding to pointed questions - that's stupid. I'm not even getting into your pie-in-the-sky numbers which are not an apples to apples comparison until you respond to clearly asked questions (hint: there's a "?" at the end of a question I ask - there are many which you ignored. Also, I want to know why you are ignoring large

"Now if you ask an alien what is worse 10000 deaths or 30000 deaths he will get the answer right. My question to you is WHAT PLANET ARE YOU FROM THAT YOU DON’T EVEN UNDERSTAND THIS MOST BASIC FORM OF MATH."" Here's a parallel to show how stupid that statement is: Dharavi, the worst slum in the world, has a lower murder rate than Manhattan. Therefore Dharavi is a better place than Manhattan.

“You are funny, No Name, on how you selectively respond to only parts of the post where you feel you can still be slippery, and totally ignore those parts where your fallacies are exposed and pinned down and you can't wiggle out. Anyone who reads my last post, and then sees which parts you have responded to, can understand this clearly.” If you are wondering why I do not respond to certain of your remarks I must assume that you have a very short memory. I refer to my post No Name 1/31/2004 2:02:16 PM where is stated the following: I will not respond to your personal references because I cannot state my position more clearly than I have. Now for your comments that were of a non-personal nature. How do you define "extensive ties?" It is common knowledge that the many of the AWB, etc..were ex-army, ex-police. Also, one of the parts of my previous post which you conveniently decided not to respond to, or admit you were wrong on as a man of character should, showed a credible source talking about the security forces supporting the IFP violence. That is the same thing the BSB ws involved in. That was also a right wing agenda. But you cannot see the links, apparently. Timothy McVay was an ex marine. I suppose the US Government supported him as well in Oklahoma. Bye the way, Im still waiting for the proof that the SA Government supported rightwing groups. Oh no, my mistake, you did point out the BSB, the first white rightwing party with blacks as members. My mistake. "As for the whole truth about the BSB. The BSB was never a political party, it was a covert security forces operation to eliminate the ANC leadership." Make up your mind on what you were saying. Talk about answers with no substance. ??????????? "If the other ethnic groups in the country want to be schooled in English it is their right, no problem. We want to be schooled in our own language. In a true democracy this issue would not even be debatable." Knock yourself out - do it with your own money though, not government funds. I suppose economy was not your forte. Tell me capatalist 72, were do you think governments get their money? Especially in South Africa where if you are to be believed it is only whites who have money. “Everywhere in Africa I've traveled has plenty of whites, none complaining of racism. Any black from an African country who traveled to South Africa during apartheid complained of the racism.” Does that include the 3 000 000 illegal black immigrants we had in the late 1980’s? As for your rambling about martians below, answer the questions I posed earlier when you brought this up. Don't keep repeating the same things without responding to pointed questions - that's stupid. I'm not even getting into your pie-in-the-sky numbers which are not an apples to apples comparison until you respond to clearly asked questions (hint: there's a "?" at the end of a question I ask - there are many which you ignored. Hint, stay away from personal attacks and remarks and you will be surprised how many answers you will get. As for the apples with apples, I already tried it but you seem to dislike the fact that I compare South African blacks with other black people in Africa. “Here's a parallel to show how stupid that statement is: Dharavi, the worst slum in the world, has a lower murder rate than Manhattan. Therefore Dharavi is a better place than Manhattan” I doubt that but it seems to be a safer place. Did I mention that 20000 more people in South Africa were killed last year as compared to the statistics in 1988. Can you believe how the security situation has deteriorated in South Africa? It is definitely much worse than Dharavi and Manhattan combined.

"Now if you ask an alien what is worse 10000 deaths or 30000 deaths he will get the answer right." There is no reason to assume an alien will share the prevailing human ethic about all human life being equally sacred. A species of intelligent bees or ants would naturally assume 20,000 deaths are preferable to 1, if that 1 is the queen, and therefore they would respond to this question by asking "Since not all humans are equally productive, which was more productive for humanity, the 10,000 or the 30,000?"

SGTObvious: A valid point. In this case I would however contest that the common denominator is South African deaths. I do not value the lives of South Africans differently be it black , white or Indian. So for the bees I would ask, what is worse the death of 10000 queen bees or 30000queen bees. The answer would stay the same.

"Timothy McVay was an ex marine. I suppose the US Government supported him as well in Oklahoma." That's an exception, not a rule. Can you point to any more examples? I can point to many, many examples to show that a good portion of the right wing had military training, and were supported by ACTIVE members of the security forces. "Bye the way, Im still waiting for the proof that the SA Government supported rightwing groups." I can address the issue, since there is much documentation on the Internet on the issue, but quite honestly I'd like to first put to bed the several issues that we've been discussing from much earlier on that you've been trying to weasel out of. Here they are: 1. I'm waiting for you to admit you were wrong about security force support and fomentation of the 1988 riots. I've provided the clear quotation on the subject, but you have been strangely quiet on the subject. 2. I wanted to know how you lived with blacks in equal conditions during Apartheid, when the Group Areas Act was in place. You've been quiet on your claim here. 3. Why do you feel you can equate "racism" against Indians in the rest of Africa which doesn't venture much beyond an odd comment in a crowd, with the brutal physical racism that the apartheid regime, and all it's supporters, perpetrated? 4. You haven't responded to this quotation from my earlier post below, other than saying there are no whites in the rest of Africa, which is patently not true. There are plenty providing skilled labour all over Africa: "I said, the racist element you see in South Africa against whites today is caused by the generations of Apartheid, and once the generation untainted by that evil regime and its supporters are left, you will not find this racism anymore…after all, look at the rest of Africa, where you do not find it." 5. Here's something else you haven't responded to (because you don't know how?):"Yes, well, unfortunately they don’t support your thesis that things are worse now then they were then. You see, you have glossed over the issues I’ve mentioned regarding the apartheid government’s role in South Africa’s problems today, the numerous crimes under apartheid, and the apartheid state’s support for the 1988 unrest. Only pseudo-liberals like yourself, typically white, sometimes privileged Indians, say life was better then than it is now for *the majority of South Africans.* It is rather incomprehensible that any half-witted numbskull, not to mention an intelligent individual would think that the problems faced by a country this decade had nothing to do with its radically different social, political, and economic policies in the decades prior." 6. Another you didn't respond to: "What makes you think that 10,000 deaths in riots in Kwa-Zulu Natal is an apples to apples comparison with overall deaths in RSA today? Didn't the apartheid government expect an increase in crime, when unemployed, impoverished people, who were forced to stay in Soweto or Alexandria were suddenly able to walk around white/Indian parts of the city without any restrictions? When a generation in Soweto lost their schooling due to being shot up for peacefully protesting against being forced to learn Afrikaans, and the subsequent riots because of this? Like I said, most people who feel it is worse today were the priveleged class under apartheid. If it is worse, then do you think a majority of South African's (not just whites) long for the days under apartheid? What is really interesting is your absolute denial that the wealth imbalance, poverty, and lack of opportunity for blacks and in the townships created during the apartheid years has anything to do with this violence today. " Answer these, before we open up any new topics. "I suppose economy was not your forte. Tell me capatalist 72, were do you think governments get their money? Especially in South Africa where if you are to be believed it is only whites who have money. " What does that have to dow ith anything? So if the money comes from whites, it should be spent mostly on whites? Is that what you are saying? Is that how you expect taxes to be spent in a democracy? Anyway, let's stick to the topic at hand. "“Everywhere in Africa I've traveled has plenty of whites, none complaining of racism. Any black from an African country who traveled to South Africa during apartheid complained of the racism.”"Does that include the 3 000 000 illegal black immigrants we had in the late 1980’s?" Don't be slippery - talk about the issue. Are you trying to say that there is equal proportion of "reverse racism" in other African countries as there was in RSA from whites to blacks during apartheid? Are you really trying to absolve the responsiblity the apartheid regime had for creating any sort of reverse racism that exists in South africa today? Please do me a favour - try and answer a straight question with a straight answer, and don't weasel away from them with excuses and changing

“That's an exception, not a rule. Can you point to any more examples? I can point to many, many examples to show that a good portion of the right wing had military training, and were supported by ACTIVE members of the security forces.” You might remember a thing called national service. All white men in South Africa had military training. Supported by some active members in the security forces, definitely. The statement that it was government policy, is the talk of someone who hasn’t got a clue. Surf the net to your harts content, you will not find a credible source to support that statement. “1. I'm waiting for you to admit you were wrong about security force support and fomentation of the 1988 riots. I've provided the clear quotation on the subject, but you have been strangely quiet on the subject.” Must have missed that quotation, feel free to quote it again. 2. I wanted to know how you lived with blacks in equal conditions during Apartheid, when the Group Areas Act was in place. You've been quiet on your claim here. Still suffering from that short-term memory loss, maybe you should have it checked. “3. Why do you feel you can equate "racism" against Indians in the rest of Africa which doesn't venture much beyond an odd comment in a crowd, with the brutal physical racism that the apartheid regime, and all it's supporters, perpetrated?” You said there was no racism in Africa, I just pointed out your mistake. As far as I know Indians never oppressed anyone on this continent and they are still being ridiculed purely because they are the ones with money in their respective countries. 4. You haven't responded to this quotation from my earlier post below, other than saying there are no whites in the rest of Africa, which is patently not true. There are plenty providing skilled labour all over Africa: "I said, the racist element you see in South Africa against whites today is caused by the generations of Apartheid, and once the generation untainted by that evil regime and its supporters are left, you will not find this racism anymore…after all, look at the rest of Africa, where you do not find it." I think my response to question 3 answers this one as well. “5. Here's something else you haven't responded to (because you don't know how?):"Yes, well, unfortunately they don’t support your thesis that things are worse now then they were then. You see, you have glossed over the issues I’ve mentioned regarding the apartheid government’s role in South Africa’s problems today, the numerous crimes under apartheid, and the apartheid state’s support for the 1988 unrest. Only pseudo-liberals like yourself, typically white, sometimes privileged Indians, say life was better then than it is now for *the majority of South Africans.* It is rather incomprehensible that any half-witted numbskull, not to mention an intelligent individual would think that the problems faced by a country this decade had nothing to do with its radically different social, political, and economic policies in the decades prior." What you are saying is partly true. You however forget the following: In the eighties we were involved in a war in Angola, we had a civil war in South Africa, we had the worst draught in living memory, we had extremely tough economic sanctions against us and we financed Namibia and the TBVC states. Yet despite this our unemployment figure was not nearly as bad as it is today. Since the ANC took over power in 1994 we only reached a GDP growth rate of 3% once, much lower than the period in the 1980’s. So yes social, political and economic policies do play a role, but as far as social and economic problems are concerned it has only grown worse since the 1994. This is despite the fact that the problems experienced in the eighties do not exist anymore today. “6. Another you didn't respond to: "What makes you think that 10,000 deaths in riots in Kwa-Zulu Natal is an apples to apples comparison with overall deaths in RSA today? Didn't the apartheid government expect an increase in crime, when unemployed, impoverished people, who were forced to stay in Soweto or Alexandria were suddenly able to walk around white/Indian parts of the city without any restrictions? When a generation in Soweto lost their schooling due to being shot up for peacefully protesting against being forced to learn Afrikaans, and the subsequent riots because of this? Like I said, most people who feel it is worse today were the priveleged class under apartheid. If it is worse, then do you think a majority of South African's (not just whites) long for the days under apartheid? What is really interesting is your absolute denial that the wealth imbalance, poverty, and lack of opportunity for blacks and in the townships created during the apartheid years has anything to do with this violence today. " Never said 10000 people died in Kwa-Zulu Natal. They were never forced to learn afrikaans. It was proposed. Again that m