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Subject: WHITE PEOPLE FLEE!!!!!!!!!
Ty    8/23/2001 11:05:26 AM
I predict within a year or two there will be a whole sale massacre of the white population in South Africa-the country is slipping back to murderous criminal tribal ways!I guess the white people can flee to Iceland(brrr),Russia(oh my!) ,I guess there isn't too many all white nations left-but get out and get out soon if you want to save your lives!
 
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No Name    RE:I wrote this before but...   1/25/2004 2:44:53 PM
It is true that most white South Africans are not completely aware of what happened at Cuato Canavale. I think the Cuban population were not told the truth either. Fact of the matter is that the South African army totaling approx. 3 000 men swept away all before it up to the battle of Quato. The Angolans and Cubans decided to make this their last stand. They were well dug in, in defense positions. South African commaders knew that the battle would only be won with heavy infantry involvement and heavy losses seeing that the Mig 23 ruled the skies over our air force with its aging F1’s and could therefore not rely on the air force during the battle. The Olifant tanks were brought in because our Ratel and eland armored vehicles only had 90mm main guns and were deemed inferior to the T62. The olifant tanks and Ratel ZT3 with its TOW copy missiles decimated the T62’s. When it came to the final battle it was decided to use the UNITA rebels as infantry in the main assault combined with the South African Armour. This would minimize South African losses. South Africa only lost approx. 40 men but the UNITA rebels suffered major casualties. The casualties on the Angolan/ Cuban side were also substantial. It was a stalemate The South African commanders reported back to Pretoria that the battle could only be won if the South African infantry were allowed to be used in the offensive. Pretoria was unwilling to allow this, seeing that the casualties could have had a political backlash. Orders were given to withdraw.
 
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capitalist72    RE:I wrote this before but...   1/25/2004 3:20:37 PM
First, the PAC always was terrorist organisation - I've never had anything good to say about them. Second, regarding the black-on-black violence, you keep a people uneducated and impoverished, rip the family and cultural cohesion to shreds, make their lives one of permanent insecurity, and then undertake a period of masive social change, a tonne of violence is bound to happen. Also, there was strong suspicion of police instigation in some cases of this violence. The police, of course, never tried to stop the violence. There was never any rule of law in the townships - how do you expect violence to be prevented? Third, please tell me exactly how many whites were killed in ANC terror acts? Fourth, how about the other apartheid crimes? Using prisoners as slave labour, flogging and all? Arresting people on a whim? Group Areas Act? Torture on a MASSIVE scale, even of women and children? Hundreds of extra-judicial murders - like Biko's? Kangaroo trials? I'm talking about state sanctioned torture and murder. Funny thing, all you apologists for apartheid have one thing in common - you grew up in the comfort and wealth of Sandton or Rosebank or some other such luxurious white suburb. Well, I saw the other side of apartheid. Sitting in a restaurant and being told to leave because "we're not multiracial." Seeing a 12 year old white kid kick a 40 year old Indian man physically and tell him to leave an unlabelled whites only beach in Durban. Watch a policeman set a police dog on a coloured guy in Cape Town who was arguing heatedly with a white guy at a fender bender. Speaking with an Indian guy suspected incorrectly of being an ANC member about his prison experience in South Afica. Attending the funeral of a 13 year old boy (cousin of a friend of mine) and his family shot by the SADF during their terror raid on Gaborone. Dozens of other incidents. South Africa today is much better off, and many whites there do recognise this. Those that don't can go emigrate to Australia (is that how the Aussies started using terms like "curry muncher" and "coolie" for Indian spectators at the recent cricket matches there?) or whereever else. For the majority of people - the new South Africa, with all its warts, is a million times better than the hell it was before for the most of its citizens. Your ilk, instead of directing people to science fiction books like "Hold back this Day" should instead see and read true stories like Cry Freedom, or Dry White Season - that's what apartheid was. A crime against humanity, and nothing less.
 
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capitalist72    RE:WHITE PEOPLE FLEE!!!!!!!!!   1/25/2004 3:51:46 PM
http://www.gov.za/reports/2003/trc/ Read it for yourself, in all its gory detail, although incomplete.
 
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No Name    RE:WHITE PEOPLE FLEE!!!!!!!!!   1/26/2004 12:21:26 PM
CAPITALIST72 I don’t know when you left South Africa but you have serious flaws in your argument. Before I point them let me just say that I am white and an Afrikaner. In the 80’s I was frequently called a Kaffer Boetie something usually referred to the liberal or left wing whites. As for the experiences you refer to, I experienced them all and even more seeing I have lived here longer than you have. It shocked and saddened me that people could behave in this manner, even worse my own people. Now to your remarks: 1.We are in agreement the PAC were terrorists. 2."Second, regarding the black-on-black violence, you keep a people uneducated and impoverished, rip the family and cultural cohesion to shreds, make their lives one of permanent insecurity, and then undertake a period of masive social change, a tonne of violence is bound to happen." In 1988 83% of black people in South Africa were educated. The highest figure in Africa at that time. We also had the lowest infant mortality rate in Africa as well as the highest per capita income. As for ripping families and cultural cohesion apart, I think the National Party at that stage would have wanted nothing more than to keep it together because that would not favor the idea of mass civil unrest. The ANC on the other hand propagated civil unrest, which did rip families and cultures apart. 3.Also, there was strong suspicion of police instigation in some cases of this violence. Police brutality for sure, instigation of violence not likely. The TRC did however find that the BSB did try and coherse Zoeloes into fighting the ANC. The police, of course, never tried to stop the violence. This could not be further from the truth. Closer to the truth was that the level of civil unrest was so high that the army was called in to try and stop the violence. 4.Third, please tell me exactly how many whites were killed in ANC terror acts? Well my friend I never made a study of this and if I should I would have to change my career because it would be a very time-consuming exercise. What I can tell you is that a lot more black people were killed by the ANC than whites. This was done by Kangaroo courts and their favorite execution style was the necklace (Burning somebody alive). As for whites that were killed the preferred method was bombings of restaurants , sport stadiums and city center car bombings. Admittedly this was mostly in the 80’s to early 90’s and not prior to that period. "Funny thing, all you apologists for apartheid have one thing in common - you grew up in the comfort and wealth of Sandton or Rosebank or some other such luxurious white suburb. Well, I saw the other side of apartheid." Assumptions, none of which is true. Bye the way the white people of Sandton and Rosebank were by far more supportive of political change. In fact the ANC received a lot of funding from these people. Cry Freedom, or Dry White Season I did read both. I always thought Cry Freedom was the story of a white priest showing compassion to an old black man after the Blackman’s son committed a terrible murder. ALLAN PATON if I am not mistaken. AUSTRALIA As for the things that happened in Australia. White Australians basically annihilated their own indigenous population, something white South Africans never did. They can be very good racists without our help. SOUTH AFRICA TODAY You seem to forget that white South Africans voted to allow black people to take part in political life in South Africa. What we didn’t vote for was the 30 000 blacks, whites, coulerds and Indians that were murdered last year in our country. No country has a worse crime record. Healthcare going down the drain. We didn’t comprehend that our present government would not acknowledge the link between HIV and AIDS. Our government by doing this has killed more people than apartheid ever did. Approx. 25% of our people are now infected and our minister of health is still propagating the African Potato as a cure. As for racism. Alive and well as can be seen from the support our government is giving Robert Mugabe today. The way in which affirmative action is being used is forcing white South Africans to end up in Australia and not the fact that they are racists, as you would like to believe. I know it is hard to comprehend but racism is not solely white against black but also black against white. As for right and wrong. I was a critic of the government in the 80’s and that made me a Kaffir Boetie. If my criticism today makes me a racist in your eyes so be it. I was proved right in the early 90’s and I will be proven right again. All I want is a peaceful, prosperous and non-racial South Africa. We still don’t have it.
 
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capitalist72    RE:WHITE PEOPLE FLEE!!!!!!!!!   1/26/2004 7:04:36 PM
"Before I point them let me just say that I am white and an Afrikaner." Expected. "In the 80’s I was frequently called a Kaffer Boetie something usually referred to the liberal or left wing whites." I know what a kafir boetie is. "In 1988 83% of black people in South Africa were educated. The highest figure in Africa at that time. As for ripping families and cultural cohesion apart, I think the National Party at that stage would have wanted nothing more than to keep it together because that would not favor the idea of mass civil unrest." Spare me the "our blacks were better off than other blacks" argument. You have to consider the education, and living standards of blacks with other citizens in the same country, not with blacks in Rwanda or Mozambique. Tell me, how did the blacks live as compared to you? The very concept of giving the most impoverished land to blacks as "Bantustans" like Bop and other places, meant that frequently men had to travel far away from home, living in hostels in the townships, away from their families for months. "The ANC on the other hand propagated civil unrest, which did rip families and cultures apart." The ANC propogated a freedom struggle, yes. "3.Also, there was strong suspicion of police instigation in some cases of this violence. "Police brutality for sure, instigation of violence not likely." Read the link below from the TRC. It's all about police collusion with the IFP to foment the black on black violence you mentioned earlier. This even went to the extent of providing arms. http://www.gov.za/reports/2003/trc/4_3ap.pdf "This could not be further from the truth. Closer to the truth was that the level of civil unrest was so high that the army was called in to try and stop the violence." It is an established fact that the righ wing groups, such as the AWB, had extensive and close relationships with the security apparatus, many of them being ex-security forces men themselves. It is also an established fact that these groups, as well as the police themselves, colluded with the IFP. This is all from the TRC report which you first quoted as a source. "4.Third, please tell me exactly how many whites were killed in ANC terror acts? Well my friend I never made a study of this and if I should I would have to change my career because it would be a very time-consuming exercise." From the TRC, it says 56. " What I can tell you is that a lot more black people were killed by the ANC than whites. This was done by Kangaroo courts and their favorite execution style was the necklace (Burning somebody alive)." Yes. Suspected collaborators were murdered. You couldn't find one freedom struggle in history that didn't do this. "As for whites that were killed the preferred method was bombings of restaurants , sport stadiums and city center car bombings." Well, now. I think you need to read the document (TRC) that you originally referred to, to understand the ANC mandate better. "Assumptions, none of which is true." The implication in those assumptions are that as a white/Afrikaner, you had a privileged life in apartheid South Africa. Don't get semantical and boil it down to a particular suburb - that's evading the point. "Bye the way the white people of Sandton and Rosebank were by far more supportive of political change." A little more, yes - primarily because these were English speaking suburbs. "In fact the ANC received a lot of funding from these people. " Not during apartheid - rubbish. "I did read both. I always thought Cry Freedom was the story of a white priest showing compassion to an old black man after the Blackman’s son committed a terrible murder. ALLAN PATON if I am not mistaken." You are mistaken - that is Cry the Beloved Country, by Alan Paton. Cry Freedom was Biko's story. "They can be very good racists without our help." I was just a bit surprised to see such similar verbage to what I've been subjected to in South Africa hundreds of times used on the other side of the world. "You seem to forget that white South Africans voted to allow black people to take part in political life in South Africa." How gracious of them! I remember a referendum in which 35-40% of the whites were so racist, that they voted "no" to joining the modern era. Despite the fact that the economy was in shambles due to sanctions. That shows something about the prevalence of racism among whites in South Africa. It could be inferred, that some percentage who voted yes, were also racist, but saw the economic benefits and inevitability of the matter. "What we didn’t vote for was the 30 000 blacks, whites, coulerds and Indians that were murdered last year in our country. No country has a worse crime record." Well, it's the result of years of apartheid and suppression. You don't expect everyone to become doctors and lawyers overnight, do you? You don't expect kids raised in the mess of township schools
 
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No Name    RE:WHITE PEOPLE FLEE!!!!!!!!!    1/27/2004 10:12:19 AM
Capitalist72: I honestly cant get myself to respond to most of what you have written purely because it either lacks any credibility or is prejudiced by your own experiences in this country. It may be time you come back and see for yourself what the situation in our country is. I know you wont take my word for it. You gave me a link to follow. Now here is one for you. Scroll down to this message send by MAARTEN RE:Don't Flee - Read Hold Back This Day 11/11/2003 7:56:22 AM. Follow his link. This happened to 30000 people in South Africa last year. If that is acceptable losses for you or even excusable by saying it is a relic of apartheid then we must agree to disagree. Last point of advise. Keep personal insults out of this forum, because it only reflects badly on your ability to debate an issue intelligently.
 
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capitalist72    RE:WHITE PEOPLE FLEE!!!!!!!!!    1/27/2004 12:37:26 PM
"Capitalist72: I honestly cant get myself to respond to most of what you have written purely because it either lacks any credibility or is prejudiced by your own experiences in this country." It's a pity you find yourself unable to respond. You are free to use whatever excuses you like to mask your inability to respond. I have based most of my statements on the source you originally referred me to - the TRC. "It may be time you come back and see for yourself what the situation in our country is." I've been back to South Africa on numerous occassions, the last being 2000. I also have many friends in the country. I am aware of what is going on there. "You gave me a link to follow. Now here is one for you. Scroll down to this message send by MAARTEN RE:Don't Flee - Read Hold Back This Day 11/11/2003 7:56:22 AM. Follow his link." Yes, the crime in South Africa is sad and tragic. If you cannot see the seeds of this in the years of apartheid, adn blame it all on todays government, then that's a little bit blind. The funny thing about Maarten's link, is that it doesn't talk about the 30K people, only the Afrikaners who were murdered. No pictures of the blacks who were murdered there? Many Indians have been murdered too - where are their pictures? Do you not understand the mentality that I'm referring to, that only puts up pictures of Afrikaners who have been subjected to criminal acts? And where were these kind of links from the Afrikaner polity during apartheid? Everything is viewed through a racial prism in South Africa, by virtue of its apartheid heritage, which the country was subjected to by its Afrikaner ruling class. Here's an example on the lighter side of things: before South Africa joined world cricket, there was only "the fastest bowler" tag. After RSA joined, Allan Donald began to be referred to as "the fastest white man alive." I found that hilarious, but also a little sad. "This happened to 30000 people in South Africa last year. If that is acceptable losses for you or even excusable by saying it is a relic of apartheid then we must agree to disagree." What a convenient way of putting words into my mouth. How did I say that it was either excusable or acceptable? Quote me. On the contrary, I said that I have no problem with criticism of the government in power. My point was/is, that moral relativists who try to say that South Africa today is just as bad as South Africa under apartheid, are wrong. They're also usually white South Africans. Where are the black moral relativists? Doesn't their absence make you reconsider your position? This was your original implication that I responded to. Also, kindly advise how these criminal deaths are "racist?" "Last point of advise. Keep personal insults out of this forum, because it only reflects badly on your ability to debate an issue intelligently." Unfortunately, the issue is very personal for me. I haven't insulted you - so again, don't put words into my mouth. As for intelligent discussion, it isn't me who is dimissive of your arguments without providing substance to back it up.
 
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SGTObvious    Do I really have to point this out?   1/27/2004 1:41:34 PM
No Name stated, in part, to Cap72, re, Cap72's writing: "or is prejudiced by your own experiences in this country." Umm.. No Name... EVERYTHING written by EVERYONE is prejudiced by their own experiences. Learning through your own experiences is part of being human.
 
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No Name    RE:WHITE PEOPLE FLEE!!!!!!!!!   1/28/2004 3:14:17 PM
capitalist72: The problem with substance is that you don’t see it. In 1988 at the height of apartheid some 10000 people were killed in what was essentially a civil war. Now if you are to be believed, this happened while the security forces fueled the violence and furthermore did nothing to stop it. In 2003 30000 people were murdered in this country. There is no civil war today, police isn’t instigating violence and they are we presume, doing their utmost to stop this senseless killing. If you cant see the reason why people feel it is worse today then you will never see it. Now for the personal insults you didn’t make. “Funny thing, all you apologists for apartheid have one thing in common - you grew up in the comfort and wealth of Sandton or Rosebank or some other such luxurious white suburb.” (Quote me where I said I approved of apartheid. If that isn’t bad enough you make assumptions regarding my upbringing, which is totally false.) "Before I point them let me just say that I am white and an Afrikaner." Expected. (Again generalizing and insulting) Tell me, how did the blacks live as compared to you? (As a matter of fact I lived with them and still do but has nothing to do with this debate) The implication in those assumptions are that as a white/Afrikaner, you had a privileged life in apartheid South Africa. Don't get semantical and boil it down to a particular suburb - that's evading the point. (Again a false assumption totally devoid of truth. As for getting down to suburbs I believe you boiled it down to the suburbs and I just responded) As for the fact that MAARTEN only showed whites that were killed I can only assume it was in response to the original message that read WHITE PEOPLE FLEE. I am not MAARTEN so this is an assumption on my part. I did however mention all South Africans as being victims. With regard to your question on how these criminal acts are racist. It has become quite common for these whites MAARTEN refer to, to be tortured. It has been documented that some of these tortures lasted days. Even more perplexing is the fact that robbery was ruled out in the majority of cases where torture occurred. The most damming evidence comes from the culprits that were caught. They readily admit their hate toward whites. Lastly I want to reiterate that I support the political system we have. I always did. I however cannot condone what is happening in our country today. Crime and aids is destroying the fabric of life for everybody. More people are dying in our country than ever before. Purely because civil liberties and political life has been restored for all, does not mean that physical realities reflect this.
 
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capitalist72    RE:WHITE PEOPLE FLEE!!!!!!!!!   1/30/2004 10:34:51 AM
"In 1988 at the height of apartheid some 10000 people were killed in what was essentially a civil war. Now if you are to be believed, this happened while the security forces fueled the violence and furthermore did nothing to stop it." Stop right there. Don't be tricky with words. Don't say "if you are to be believed" as if I haven't substantiated my arguments. I'm reiterating for the n'th time that the TRC report has a whole section called "Third Force" dedicated to support this argument. So you have to tell me now how the TRC report is wrong. "In 2003 30000 people were murdered in this country. There is no civil war today, police isn’t instigating violence and they are we presume, doing their utmost to stop this senseless killing. If you cant see the reason why people feel it is worse today then you will never see it." What makes you think that 10,000 deaths in riots in Kwa-Zulu Natal is an apples to apples comparison with overall deaths in RSA today? Didn't the apartheid government expect an increase in crime, when unemployed, impoverished people, who were forced to stay in Soweto or Alexandria were suddenly able to walk around white/Indian parts of the city without any restrictions? When a generation in Soweto lost their schooling due to being shot up for peacefully protesting against being forced to learn Afrikaans, and the subsequent riots because of this? Like I said, most people who feel it is worse today were the priveleged class under apartheid. If it is worse, then do you think a majority of South African's (not just whites) long for the days under apartheid. What is really interesting is your absolute denial that the wealth imbalance, poverty, and lack of opportunity for blacks and in the townships created during the apartheid years has anything to do with this violence today. "Now for the personal insults you didn’t make. “Funny thing, all you apologists for apartheid have one thing in common - you grew up in the comfort and wealth of Sandton or Rosebank or some other such luxurious white suburb.”" LOL, you're a little high strung there...must be the years of being called a "kaffir boetie" by your compatriots. "(Quote me where I said I approved of apartheid." Now, now. Don't jump to conclusions. I didn't say you approved of apartheid in that sentence, I said you were an apologist for apartheid. The substance behind that claim of mine is your initial wording trying to say that the regime in power today is as evil as the apartheid one in your orginal "moral relativist" post with numbers of dead cited. Here's the quote: "To capitalist 72. According to the Truth and reconciliation Commission the respective white South African governments from 1967 – 1990 killed or assassinated 900 ANC or PAC members. Now you can add hundreds more that were killed by security forces in township violence. Now take into account that black on black violence in 1988 took the lives of more than 10000 in these riots. You " "(If that isn’t bad enough you make assumptions regarding my upbringing, which is totally false.)"Before I point them let me just say that I am white and an Afrikaner." Expected. (Again generalizing and insulting)" You can be insulted by the assumption, but unfortunately for you it is correct? Yes, it's too bad that my assumption was correct. You see, I somehow knew you didn't grow up in Soweto or Lenasia. "Tell me, how did the blacks live as compared to you? (As a matter of fact I lived with them and still do but has nothing to do with this debate)" You lived in the townships under the same conditions as the blacks? Good one. By the way, you're very selective about what you respond to. It has everything to do with this debate, as you were claiming how good the blacks had it compared to others in Africa, and I was pointing out that citizens of a country have the right to benchmark against other groups within the country. You don't find Americans pointing out that blacks in America are better off compared to blacks anywhere else, do you? "The implication in those assumptions are that as a white/Afrikaner, you had a privileged life in apartheid South Africa. Don't get semantical and boil it down to a particular suburb - that's evading the point. (Again a false assumption totally devoid of truth. As for getting down to suburbs I believe you boiled it down to the suburbs and I just responded)" Again, no substance to your response other than a dismissal. As an Afrikaner, the school you went to was not better equipped than the schools in the townships? Why were there no Afrikaner maids or "garden boys"? Were they all just more competent than the blacks - all of them? Or were they brought up in more privileged background? You remember the Orange Free State, where any person of colour had to register at a police office if they were going to be there after dark? did you also have to do that? You seem to be slow understanding what I was saying by the use of those
 
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