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Subject: Comparison between early and last Spitfire variants?
45-Shooter    7/30/2013 11:50:41 PM
The Spitful/Seafang was ~100% heavier than the Mk-V/IX at MTO and about 60% heavier at combat weights, yet they reduced the wing area by more than 10% and changed the profile to a "Laminar flow" type to gain speed, range and rate of roll at the huge expense of nearly 70% higher wing loading and the superb handling of the famous Mitchell Elliptical wing. My question is; Why did they do that, if the traits they gave up were nearly as important as those they gained?
 
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marat,jean       8/2/2013 12:57:41 PM

It, the Spitfire compared to the Hurricane was a lousy naval fighter,

No it wasnt it was superior in nearly all aspects that is why it REPLACED the hurricane!

( too FRAGILE. Hellcat was better since it was purpose designed to crash on decks.).
whilst fragile it was a superior fighter and once actually navalised was a very successfull one,

 Not at all. Not against the Japanese ever. That and the fact that the Hurricane was more robust in a carrier environment is the reason i call it a lousy naval fighter.  

  It flew over Berlin as a stripped down lightened recon bird optimized for speed unable to fight at all.

actually not, it was, in early forms unarmed but the extra weight of the cameras made up for that, weight wise they were heavier (excluding fuel) , some later ones actually retained the guns IIRC all tyhe Recon birds the USAAF flew all retained the guns

 Many of the P-38 recon birds lost their guns for nose cameras. The recon Spits I've seen traded guns for fuel and range. There may have been recon Spits with the humpback and wing cameras and guns, but I don't think those were the Berlin birds.  

 Note that it was important to fly recon and the Spitfire did it well, but to call that recon bird a fighter is a misnomer.

why? if it looks like a fighter , is armed like a fighter and flys like a fighter why is it not a fighter?

See above. A recon bird flies over, fast, takes pictures, and then runs for home. That's its mission.  It is not supposed to fight. Taking the guns away concentrates the pilot on his mission.   
 
 
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marat,jean       8/2/2013 1:04:08 PM

by the time the P51 begain ops over Japan there was no japanise airforce, what few planes they had left were all kept in reserve for the invasion, plus the fact that Lemay had swtiched to night bombing meant that the P51 was rarely used as an escort

 Draw the range  circles for yourself. 750 miles (1300 kilometers  combat radius). This is not hard to figure out or to check (I'm not Shooter, I tell you how to check my facts.). The Japanese and Americans both knew where they were doomed to fight each other. There are only so many islands suitable for land based single engined fighters with those characteristics in the Pacific near Japan.     

try looking at the numbers of P51s and the numbers of P38 that served in the pacific!

1. Lemay conducted aerial mining in daylight at low altitude. Those missions were heavily escorted.
 
2. The P-51s show up in Japan air space only when USAAF bombing of the home islands begins in earnest around the time Iwo falls.   
 
So... my argument stands.
 
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marat,jean       8/2/2013 1:26:06 PM

About the RAF failure to mount fighter intruder sweeps...

What makes you think this? You seem to assume that the way it played out is the ONLY possible way it could have occurred, the US threw aircraft over Germany. Fortunately it had the manufacturing and manpower to do this the RAF hadn't at this time, the British were running out of men. 

Admittedly it would have required a radical set of ideas to go to a daylight fighter bomber campaign in 1942-43, but what the heck? What Harris did wasn't working. *(known by 1943) Four men lost per plane was better than seven. I frankly think the Americans were incredibly stupid to not mount their own version of this kind of fast bomber campaign with a long ranged medium bomber force of their own. The B-17 was not the right kind of bomber, and neither was the B-24. Too slow, too expensive to make, and too manpower intensive. An aluminum Mosquito, or a Marauder would have delivered the same ineffective tonnages at less cost in men and money, with the same fighter bait function and the same end results, but that is hindsight.

back in your cage, they were not incompetent they just regarded the compromise needed to carry that amount of fuel to be to great, the P51 fully loaded was bearly flyable, the Spit had the same flight charactistics as did the p51 when fully loaded the RAF just regarded it as ott when they didnt have a need for such a long range fighter 

Why would the same exact reasons and methods that the USAAF used to win the air war over the Luftwaffe day fighter force from British air bases not apply to the RAF? This is an argument I think you cannot make at all.

just because they disagree with your opinion of how things should be does not make them incompetent   this is what shooter does, he has his opinions and everyone else is just too stupid to agree with him

 
First... I KNOW more now about results than they did then. Their opinions of how things could have turned out were based on their educated wrong guesses. Mine are based on historical results. That is a HUGE difference. I use the same exact knowledge base they had plus that hindsight to see where they could have tried something else.   

Ahhhh. I think you also just insulted me! Hindsight shows what worked for the Americans. A little imagined foresight indicates what could have worked for the British. The Americans did that work. The British didn't. The Americans killed the Luftwaffe. The British helped with night intruders, but not enough over Germany where it mattered in quantities where it mattered and where the Americans wanted to force the air battle. Not over France where the ground armies were, but over Germany. Bodenplatte was a one shot affair. Imagine five or six in a row?

That was what the Japanese planned kamikaze style (4000 in waves) for DOWNFALL. That was why carrier based fighters wouldn't work.
 
Want to ask again why all the hundreds of land based P-51s showed up in August 1945 near Japan?
 
 
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marat,jean       8/2/2013 1:50:42 PM

but that range was at the penalty of performance - you are doing a shooter here, taking the pros and ignoring the cons

In the Mediterranean? Against the Axis JUNK flown there?

 
 

Aftermath of Crete

In the fighting for Crete, the Allies suffered around 4,000 killed, 1,900 wounded, and 17,000 captured. The campaign also cost the Royal Navy 9 ships sunk and 18 damaged. German losses totaled 4,041 dead/missing, 2,640 wounded, 17 captured, and 370 aircraft destroyed. Stunned by the high losses sustained by Student's troops, Hitler resolved never to conduct a major airborne operation again. Conversely, many Allied leaders were impressed by the airborne's performance and moved to create similar formations within their own armies. In studying the German experience in Crete, American airborne planners, such as Colonel James Gavin, recognized the need for troops to jump with their own heavy weapons. This doctrinal change ultimately aided American airborne units once they reached Europe.

Draw an air range circle from Alexandria to Athens. Map.
 
Now you are Andrew Cunningham and Freyberg has screwed up, (again.). You have to evacuate him. Would a little long ranged land based fighter support help? The fighters are much quicker to build than aircraft carriers.
 
1000 kilometers give or take a few dozen. P-51 has a combat radius of 1300.  
 
Might have taught the Americans something.
 
" LESSON. 
 
From Rabaul to Henderson Field was 600 miles or about 960 kilometers roughly.
 
As long as the Americans had fighters that could reach Rabaul, land based ones, Guadalcanal was safe. When the Japanese lost their land-based air protection you get CARTWHEEL.  60,000 Japanese starved to death, disease infested, useless.
 
The British lost Crete. AIRPOWER ALONE decided that.
 
 
 
 
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marat,jean       8/2/2013 2:07:58 PM
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From the previous post. What Crete taught the Americans.
 
Might note that the USAAF air staff issued specifications for the P-38 before Crete as Plan Orange showed they would need a long ranged interceptor, before the British war experience re-inforced this correct assessment.
 
Being a seapower, in the Mediterranean, it amazes me that the Admiralty did not point out to the RAF these time distance factors in play against the Italians.
 
1000 miles or about 1600 kilometers + between Taranto and Alexandria. 
 
The Mediterranean screams out the need for long ranged fighters (and bombers).
 
So I would say the RAF and the British aircraft establishment in 1937 were INCOMPETENT.
 
 
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marat,jean       8/2/2013 2:08:54 PM
">
 
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marat,jean       8/2/2013 2:10:23 PM
?>
 
 
Cut and paste, the link refuses to take otherwise.
 
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marat,jean    !@#$%^&*()!   8/2/2013 2:11:48 PM

PART V
Marine Air Against Rabaul

Search Hyperwar in your browser for this topic.
 
Marat.

 
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45-Shooter       8/2/2013 2:43:36 PM




 
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marat,jean       8/2/2013 2:44:17 PM

F-82 and your aforementioned Fury, which was a P-51 with a jet engine stuck into it.

the F82? a twin mustang not what I would call a developement and the NA Fury is a jet one that owed little to the P51 (except it kinda looked like one if you squint, the wing whilst similar were different in construction, profile and plan) in fact I think the ONLY thing carried over to the fury was the canopy

That is not exactly correct. Tail control and wings, the wingbox, plus cockpit. They did have to make the fuselage a FAT barrel to take the jet engine, but THAT is a Mustang with a jet engine shoved into it... an abomination. 

The F-82 was development of the Mustang, much as Heinkel He 111z was an iteration of the He 111. Some drunken engineer thought it would be a good idea. It was built.

 
The British can be very proud. After the war, the Gloster Meteor for a while was the best plane for what was needed;
no interest in jets but never regarded the Meteor very highly 

I do take a considerable interest in jets. While I do not think much of the Hunter,

yes and I notice that the majority disagree on the quality of the Hunter but not going back to that

 
Good I would hate to rehash its pilot killer qualities which I covered in the Israeli air force thread.

the Gloster for its time when all the bugs were worked out was a very good first generation jet aircraft, aerodynamically much better than Messerschmidt's bodged up Me 262. 

I agree that the 262 was a bodge job (the fact that the famous swept wing was a bodge on the fact that the engines it was forced to use had a different CoG and they swept back the wing to compensate for that rather than any flight charactistics)

Something the German jet fanboys never learn. Wrong cannon, wrong wing, fragile tail, excessive nose wander, poor stall warning, it almost seems like I'm describing the early Hunter! (I kid, I kid.)  

one of the main faults with the meteor was I believe, that they were too conservative, it would have been a far better fighter had they pushed the boundaries more (the RAF were on the whole more conservative than say the USAAF, they tended to give bigger leyway in the flight envelopes, the meteor had over heavy controls to stop the overstressing the airframe, )

Not a bad decision in those days. They weren't used to jet pusher planes and aft of center thrust loading. They were right to be cautious with that control force loading and go for the wing mounted jet pods in their first COMBAT jets. The Americans were three years behind and had to be bold so they went for broke and got extremely lucky.  
 
The P:-80 was not a bodge like the P-59 was, but there was still some 'lucky guesses' involved.
 
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