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Subject: China: OK I'm prepared for flying objects
Thomas    4/27/2013 5:44:46 PM
After my last venture in here, where I was generally considered a pathetic nut - now with senility added - I'm in for more humiliation. During the latest half year China has presented some new aircraft in the fighter arena. They appear generally to be all right - provided you are prepared to fight a 1970'ies war. I.e. they are on top of a Nimitz-class carrier, when it was launched. There are some improvements in the Chinese designs with respect to stealth - at least from certain viewing aspects; but that is about it. The bomber or attack plane would be very deadly with a nuclear device toss-bombed at the carrier. This is how the problem should have been addressed in 1970-75. But it presupposes that the rest of the systems are able to find the carrier for an attack to be mounted - even in distributed numbers along a broad front. That is to say send out enough and hope one of them will find the carrier and get close enough to release its weapon. That makes sense - provided there are enough of attacks so the chance of finding the carrier is reasonable. But it doesn't really take into account that the carrier might be escorted at some distance by f.i. destroyers with control- and warning facilities. Not that these destroyers are targets in themselves; but they just might be placed there to provide early warning so the carrier can launch fighters to deal with a low flying bat out of Hell, that doesn't turn very well. So to be honest the tactical concept - as far as I can judge - is marginal - at best. The real flaw is that the Chinese think, that the USNavy has stuck to their 1970'ies concept against the Russians. The typical French general staff assumption - that the Germans will fight the next war in the same way they lost the most recent. Sort of: "I'll honour my granddad's memory as an admiral, by doing the same dumb thing he did!" Why, with the USNavy everything is possible, but there must be admitted a fair chance that junior has not been totally lobotomised in primary school. For starters: As I said: The planes look all right as developments of f.i. the F-105 Thunderchief or perhaps something between late model F-4 and prototype F-15. What is apparently wrong is that present day F/A-18's are - if we are fair and conservative - two generations ahead of a F-105: Engine, avionics, weapons, range - you name it - might be a tad lower on manoeuvrability (compared to an F-16) supposing present day naval aviators guts are looser than their ancestors. This will mean that the death-wishing Chinese pilots are to face an enemy that in every respect is two generations ahead of him in the hardware department. This in itself reduces the chance of success (or even survival) from slim to remote. It also assumes, that the tactics of the USNavy will NOT take advantage of longer range and keeping destroyer scouts far ahead of the carrier - so the interceptors can be directed to the radar-reflecting butt of the attacker. So even if the carrier screen only uses hand-cranked AAA and not Goalkeeper or something like that few pension funds - even in the USA, where an death in infancy is considered a fair assumption - will even consider taking the Chinese pilot on as a client. Is the situation like that, that the Chinese are not to be taken serious? Oh no, nuclear weapons are always serious - ask in Tjernobyl. Even the remote risk of a nut-case getting through is devastating. The only real defence against nuclear weapons is being far away from where they explode - very far indeed. Here we come to the next point: Hardly had the Chinese revealed their latest prototypes with panache before the USNavy demonstrated to the Chinese chagrin an idea that made their second-hand carrier spilling off a fighter seem slightly silly. The USNavy sort of responded: "Nice for a first try; but why do You actually need a pilot?" They did this by launching a fighter size drone off a carrier. If that isn't urinating on their parade, I don't know what it is! Comparing generations it is safe to assume that the difference between the technologies of China and USA is around three - give or take the odd decade. It does vary from weapon to weapon. Helicopters are probably maybe two if you take the SeaKnight-Osprey distance. Furthermore it isn't a one off as the USS Dewey showed off a laser AAA - how practical it will be in actual combat remains to be seen. The practicality raises the issue of tactics: I can see at least two options with a stealthy drone - apart from the obvious recce. a) Use them as pack-mules to carry ammunition - or extra missiles which would force any Chinese fighter formation to fly through a crossfire of homing missiles with the controlling fighter somewhere well back. You might nail the drone; but which one? The drones might run out of missiles; but ehhmm what about their replacement - either transferred from the other fighter pairs or even launched from carrier before retrieving the empties. b) As an arial minefield: Drones with an autonomous evil temper shooting at everything within range and the defending fighters well back. This would mean constantly launching and retrieving drones - sure; but carriers have sort of that figured out. Anyhow, for how long would you need that mine field. Mines are generally a nuisance - not only during; but particularly after the war. The Baltic is still infested with mines from WW1 - where some might even be working today. I wouldn't count on it; but an attacker would be brave to disregard the possibility - and the possibility that the minefield might have been refreshed at a later date. The carrier? So far to sea from the coast that it will be out of Chinese worst case range. The conclusion is that this is a race China can't win! 1) Your weapons are outdated at the introduction into service - a drawback that might be compensated with numbers. 2) Not only that, but the successors to the weapons China is introducing are outdated. 3) The Americans are very cruel indeed. They only introduce the solution to China, when China is committed to large scale production - running of antiques off the assembly line. The yanks are even nastier: If China thinks they can skip a generation and catch up - that leap is met by an American generation ahead of that - while having plenty of elderly - but still advanced planes compared to the Chinese - in long term storage.
 
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Maratabc       5/5/2013 5:23:59 PM

e) The question is what can the Americans field in a hurry? (Remotely piloted vehicles of various sorts.)

 
Well yes! That is the advantage of arrested development and the technological (and tactical) initiative. Once you got a type in service - albeit limited it is not a big thing to crank up production - it is a question of money. Same thing with prototypes - they take a bit longer to get into service. The gamechanger is tactics. Look at the C-130 which is still being turned out (I know it is a very different bird today), but there were prototypes to see if there was any real hope of a tactical development. Same thing with the Volkswagen Beetle. There were lots of prototypes - about one every two or three years - that stayed that way. They were stopped before the expensive tooling cost were necessary. Today they do build the expensive German Golf - now entering its 7th or 8th generation. That doesn't mean that the earlier ones aren't in production: They are produced in Spain and Czech Republic - slightly other bodywork, but otherwise... to take advantage of the cheaper labour outside Germany. As to drones: I think they are not the successor to manned aircraft, but a supplement - a sort of donkey to carry the luggage (i,e. ammunition). That is a tactical breakaway - all you need is just a better computer in the fighter.
 
Avionics does not work that way . A pilot, whether mechanical or human, needs the correct information, a correct purpose to use that information and the correct means to implement the purpose.  
 
The purpose defines the machine. Any other approach is engineering nonsense. An air superiority fighter that relies on ambush tactic and low observability to attain air to air kills must have three overriding characteristics.
 
Aerodynamically Altitude, speed, and engine thrust advantage, as well as incredible acceleration from cruise speeds.
 
Good passive sensors.  Especially as to heat detection and optics.
 
Radar and heat signal emission control. (called low observability.)
 
Good weapon carriage to engage enemy defender aircraft efficiently.
 
But overriding almost everything is the ability to share (receive) information from other friendly ground and airborne sensors about what is out there around it . If it cannot communicate or even listen at speed to data streams so that the pilot can use weapons to engage hostiles without revealing itself, then everything else is a waste. 
 
Drone weapon  carriers ... because they have ... the ability to share (receive) information from other friendly ground and airborne sensors about what is out there around it ... must now of necessity fulfill what else the F-22 was supposed to do. 
 
======================================>

 
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Maratabc       5/5/2013 5:46:07 PM

Thomas 3rd 5/5/2013 2:59:55 AM

 f) If that admiral was Sandy Woodward, then I would ask him what drugs he smoked? [In fact I did! Didn't answer though - not me at least - but rumour has he provided some entertainment in Danish navy circles]

 
An enemy only has to be smart to defeat you. It is hubris to believe that the Chinese cannot find a Gorshkov or a 21st century Zheng He who can use what he has well. The Americans underestimated the Iraqis and it cost them a destroyer.
 
No they didn't really in so far as it didn't prevent the US from devinely whipping Saddams ass. If you keep surprises on that level the question is if the cost of considering even the remotest contingency quickly outstrips the losses. For one thing there are the losses from splendid screw-ups logistically. I don't think Gorshkov was very smart - except in ruining his country. When ever his latest project entered service in numbers the USA had added the few hundred miles extra range to the ICBM's that would make the Russians start all over again - without withdrawing the white elephants from service. g) This is true, but it is also true, it takes the Americans time to get their shots in. That is where I think you are wrong - the one the Chinese sub has to worry about is the Los Angeles - behind him. That would be how I would do it.
 
USS Stark.
 
You mean the SLBMs? As a reaction to the Moskvas? The Russians created the Akulas (Shchukas) as Ohio BM submarine hunters. 
 
The Chinese can sortie at their choosing. Americans have to rotate their patrols, unless they choose to kill the Chinese subs at their moorings which is the way I would do it. 
 
 
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Thomas       5/5/2013 6:41:21 PM




Hmm. You are the same Thomas who used to discuss how s
hallow ocean thermal layers acted as sound mirrors behind which submarines could hide
? Who used to discuss how the
Baltic nations used to bedevil the Swedes (their favorite practice victim)
with sneaking into their coasts undetected because of all the
noisy Baltic ocean sea life?


http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knud_Rasmussen-klassen


The thing is - I think measures have been taken within the last 10 years to make submarines in the Baltic a rather bad idea. All the submarine hunters have gone from the Danish Navy (Primarily Flyvefisken class)


You mean what the Americans should have built instead of their Littorals Combat Ship?

 
No I think the Americans are doing the right thing - leaving the North Atlantic to Denmark and Norway - and then having a carrier in reserve.
Arctic naval warfare is not that difficult, but it is very specialised. Here a millenium of experience does count (and I AM talking 1000 years). The USA could gain the competence to fight there; but it would be ever so costly. Much better to have an allied, you can back up if need be. Much cheaper. Where the US use a company of marines we use a platoon.
 
I think the Zumwalt class is an expensive mistake. Waters are very different. The short choppy seas of the Baltic was the perfect for the Flyvefisken class, but it was useless in the Atlantic. One of them once experienced 4 meter Atlantic waves and entered port with the gun bent in an very akward way. Another thing is that the Burke-class destroyer is probably one of the better ships ever build, as ships go: But it is useless north of Iceland.
 

 
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Thomas       5/5/2013 6:50:16 PM



The Chinese can sortie at their choosing. Americans have to rotate their patrols,
unless they choose to kill the Chinese subs at their moorings which is the way I would do it. 
 
Actually I don't think they can pass the Japanse Island chain or they wouldn't be so keen on "oil interest" in the South China Sea.


 

 
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Thomas       5/5/2013 7:09:46 PM

 
Here You entirely miss the point! Total lack of comprehension!
 
In talking changing the tactical world.
 
I don't suggest dogfighting with a F-22, but rather controlling a few drones carrying the firepower and recieving  position etc. from a lot of other sources.
 
The idea in a mass onslaught which is probably what the Chinese can come up with the trick is for the F-22 to defend the drone. Much like a frigate defends the minefield.
 
Otherwise move the drones about, dismissing them returning to base for refuelling and accepting reinforcements. And when the enemy gets near fire from the drones.
 
It is the old problem of standing air patrols the idea isn't bad provided the patrolling aircraft doesn't need manpower. Depends on the warning quality.

 
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45-Shooter    Why would you think that?   6/25/2013 12:53:36 AM


Another thing is that the Burke-class destroyer is probably one of the better ships ever build, as ships go: But it is useless north of Iceland.

Why would such a great "Sea Keeping" ship as the Burkes are well known, be "useless North of Iceland"?
 
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marat,jean       6/25/2013 5:24:10 PM
Weak bows and wrong kind of steels. Are you that ignorant?
 
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45-Shooter    Subs?   6/27/2013 1:20:08 AM

Carrier killing remains mainly an underwater event. Every carrier war-killed in history has either been torpedoed or scuttled by its crew after it burned up, with the exception of that British carrier sunk by gunfire off Norway. (It might have been scuttled, no one is sure.). Whether the torpedo was dropped by an aircraft or launched by a submarine, the point is that this remains the preferred way to ruin an aircraft carrier. It works, because unlike air attack; torpedoes, once launched, (if employed properly) almost impossible to stop.
At the battle of Midway Island, IIRC, the USN sank four or five Jap CVAs with bombs? The Japs sank one of ours with bombs, also IIRC. In the Philippine Island Campaign, the Japs sank Gambier Bay with Naval gun fire, again IIRC. In the Bikini Atomic test shots, they failed to sink the CVA with an Atomic bomb, again IIRC.

 
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45-Shooter       6/27/2013 1:46:46 AM

The Chinese can sortie at their choosing. Americans have to rotate their patrols,
This is one of the largest mistakes that armatures make in strategic thinking. Before any ship can sortie, it must be serviced with fuel, spare parts, crew and food. All of that take time and is very visible to satellites. Then they must test the electronics, easily known to anyone with a decent Elint station anyplace on the planet! We have several dozen. Because of the time scale involved and the frenzy to do it for multiple ships at the same time, we would have weeks if not months of warning before anything like your simultaneous sortie scenario could happen. Then the surge sortie ability of the American Navy is famous for their ability to turn around any ship in the fleet in 1/3 to 1/5 of the time it takes everyone else to do that same thing. So we wait until they start prepping then prep our own ships and leave first before they can sail!
     unless they choose to kill the Chinese subs at their moorings which is the way I would do it.  Actually I don't think they can pass the Japanse Island chain or they wouldn't be so keen on "oil interest" in the South China Sea.
If the Chinese think they can bluff any American President other than Obumer and not find our ships at sea in a crisis, they are very sadly mistaken! ( He might choose to help them to further his own selfish socialistic goals!)

 
 
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45-Shooter       6/27/2013 1:47:57 AM

Weak bows and wrong kind of steels. Are you that ignorant?
Why would you think that?

 
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