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Subject: P-38 gun camera and maneuvers film!
45-Shooter    4/26/2013 4:58:59 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilArlZzLW-U http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e64O_6XXk-M http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3nddCJbcdI Watch this! At 15:16 watch this plane roll! So many neat details you will not believe your eyes! Puts paid to all that BS about not being able to maneuver with agility. Also; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oz8LHjSHuls
 
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marat,jean       7/30/2013 1:41:20 AM
The simplest reply is the best. Stewie. You lie.  
 
No, the standard test procedure at the time was to use some set amount of stick pressure, typically 60 pounds, that they thought was as much as the average pilot could apply. In some planes it is both easier and more effective if you apply more pressure to the stick, which allows some planes to handily exceed their test numbers! One more point! At that time, the early 1940's, the RAF did not even test for Rate of Roll response! So they must not have thought it was important until the Fw-190 showed them the error of their ways! Before you can even beguine to address this last point, you have to find a copy of those Pre Fw-190 Rate of Roll tests done by or for the RAF. Hint, after maybe ten years here and on other boards, no-one has ever been able to find those reports! Good luck finding them and I sincerely hope that you do find them, because then they will prove beyond all doubt that the Spit was the second worst RoR plane at speeds over 300 MPH during the entire War!
 
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oldbutnotwise       7/30/2013 7:59:11 AM

No, the standard test procedure at the time was to use some set amount of stick pressure, typically 60 pounds, that they thought was as much as the average pilot could apply. In some planes it is both easier and more effective if you apply more pressure to the stick, which allows some planes to handily exceed their test numbers!

That maybe true but as you have provided no evidence it is a totally worthless statement


 One more point! At that time, the early 1940's, the RAF did not even test for Rate of Roll response!

and just how do you reckon that? as pointed out before the roll rate was assessed but as the answer dissagrees with your preconceptions you egnore them completely


 So they must not have thought it was important until the Fw-190 showed them the error of their ways!

no they realised that the roll rate gave an advantage over the MKV, the spped at lower altitude and other characteristics also gave the FW190 an advantage, increasing the roll rate was only ONE method of making the Spit more competative, and the introduction of the MKIX mean that the FW190 advatage was largely negated (even tjough the MKIX didnt roll as fast as the 190 it was pretty superior in most other flight characteristics)


 Before you can even beguine to address this last point, you have to find a copy of those Pre Fw-190 Rate of Roll tests done by or for the RAF.

Hint, after maybe ten years here and on other boards, no-one has ever been able to find those reports! Good luck finding them and I sincerely hope that you do find them, because then they will prove beyond all doubt that the Spit was the second worst RoR plane at speeds over 300 MPH during the entire War!

so what you are saying is that you have a theory but cannot prove it because you cannot find the evidence but everyone else is wrong!

this evaluation whould tend to say your claim is bogus

by any argument it shows that thier were worse which clearly disproves you
 
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45-Shooter       7/30/2013 4:07:07 PM

No, the standard test procedure at the time was to use some set amount of stick pressure, typically 60 pounds, that they thought was as much as the average pilot could apply. In some planes it is both easier and more effective if you apply more pressure to the stick, which allows some planes to handily exceed their test numbers! That maybe true but as you have provided no evidence it is a totally worthless statement
 

and just how do you reckon that? Lack of any mention of same in every single know test report! as pointed out before the roll rate was assessed How do you know that? It was not mentioned except as a by product of the coordination of the controls, or control harmony. but as the answer dissagrees with your preconceptions you egnore them completely
The answer does not disagree, or even dispute anything I stated. It was not important enough to them that they required it to be tested. Plus, the Hurricane was found to be the faster rolling of the two planes in side by side comps!

So they must not have thought it was important until the Fw-190 showed them the error of their ways!
no they realised that the roll rate gave an advantage over the MKV, the spped at lower altitude and other characteristics also gave the FW190 an advantage, increasing the roll rate was only ONE method of making the Spit more competative, and the introduction of the MKIX mean that the FW190 advatage was largely negated (even tjough the MKIX didnt roll as fast as the 190 it was pretty superior in most other flight characteristics)
I guess this brings on the argument about which is more important, agility or speed? Because the 190 had one solidly and the spit had the other just as solidly. Note the lack of conclusion and or opinion in the question above. 
  
Before you can even beguine to address this last point, you have to find a copy of those Pre Fw-190 Rate of Roll tests done by or for the RAF.

Hint, after maybe ten years here and on other boards, no-one has ever been able to find those reports! Good luck finding them and I sincerely hope that you do find them, because then they will prove beyond all doubt that the Spit was the second worst RoR plane at speeds over 300 MPH during the entire War!


so what you are saying is that you have a theory but cannot prove it because you cannot find the evidence but everyone else is wrong!
No. What I am saying is that I have ample evidence in the form of lack of early test reports, and RoR tests on later types and the opinions of many test and fighter pilots who have flow with or against the Spitfire, like the quote from Captain Brown, that the Spitfire in ALL it's War time Variants was slower rolling than the German's and most other Nation's planes. When combined with the inability of all here and elsewhere to find test reports that could be used to challenge that series of facts and well known opinions means that it therefore MUST be true! The Spitfire was one of the slowest Rolling planes of the war at higher speed!


this evaluation whould tend to say your claim is bogus
 
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/wade-roll.jpg
We have all gone over this report numerous times and it states nothing of the sort! If you doubt any of this, cut and paste the relevant parts here for us all to see.

by any argument it shows that thier were worse which clearly disproves you
No, those results were all found at lower speeds, not really relevant to late war combat. 




 
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45-Shooter    PS. Part 2!   7/30/2013 4:16:55 PM

this evaluation whould tend to say your claim is bogus

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/wade-roll.jpg  


by any argument it shows that thier were worse which clearly disproves you
Note that they only tested the Mk-IX Spitfire at 200-300 MPH and that all the other Spitfire tests were done on the post war Mk-21!

When combined with the many Pilot's anecdotal stories, the opinions of people like Captain Brown who flew those tests and the fact that at up to 400 MPH, the Fw-190 was faster rolling than the post war Mk-21. I claim that the Mk-21 Spitfire was post war because of it's late entry into service squadrons, the very small numbers that were made and the absolute lack of even one Victory in actual combat.

 
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oldbutnotwise       7/30/2013 4:36:25 PM
 
and just how do you reckon that? Lack of any mention of same in every single know test report! as pointed out before the roll rate was assessed How do you know that? It was not mentioned except as a by product of the coordination of the controls, or control harmony.
 
actually when you look at comparison tests it always mentions roll rate, and you hav e been shown these reports but as usual ignore them
 
but as the answer dissagrees with your preconceptions you egnore them completely
The answer does not disagree, or even dispute anything I stated.
not does it agree, it plainly says that you have not proved anything so is no more valid that the general opinion and there I will go with the majority rather than a lone voice with NO evidence
 
 It was not important enough to them that they required it to be tested. Plus, the Hurricane was found to be the faster rolling of the two planes in side by side comps!
actually yht Hurricane was slower rolling above 250mph
So they must not have thought it was important until the Fw-190 showed them the error of their ways!
 
no they had the 109 to test against and the Spit outrolled the 109 at low and high speeds (and the later Spits rolled faster due to strengthed wings whilst the 109 slowed down
I guess this brings on the argument about which is more important, agility or speed? Because the 190 had one solidly and the spit had the other just as solidly. Note the lack of conclusion and or opinion in the question above. 
both obviously it is the degree that is the important 
 
so what you are saying is that you have a theory but cannot prove it because you cannot find the evidence but everyone else is wrong!
No. What I am saying is that I have ample evidence in the form of lack of early test reports,
no that's LACK of evidence not evidence, evidence would be the test, that lack of evidence may just as likely support the fast rolling SPIT
 
and RoR tests on later types and the opinions of many test and fighter pilots who have flow with or against the Spitfire, like the quote from Captain Brown, that the Spitfire in ALL it's War time Variants was slower rolling than the German's and most other Nation's planes.
Firstly Winkle was refereeing to fw190s try reading his reports on the 109 in no model later than a E does he think its a match for a Spit, if you read more you will realise that he considered the MkXIV the best fighter of the war
 
When combined with the inability of all here and elsewhere to find test reports that could be used to challenge that series of facts and well known opinions means that it therefore MUST be true! The Spitfire was one of the slowest Rolling planes of the war at higher speed!
 
not so, as in the report I posted shows that the Spit was actually regarded as quite a good roller even at speed, you seem to want to match a Mk1/2 against a fw190 rather than the MkV/IX

this evaluation whould tend to say your claim is bogus
 
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/wade-roll.jpg
We have all gone over this report numerous times and it states nothing of the sort! If you doubt any of this, cut and paste the relevant parts here for us all to see.
its a diagram moron, in fact this would indicate that you didn't even bother looking at it, which would be par for the course with you
by any argument it shows that thier were worse which clearly disproves you
No, those results were all found at lower speeds, not really relevant to late war combat. 
 
400mph+ is early war? the MKIX is early war? the meteor early war? the Mk21 early war?
for god sake be real
 
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oldbutnotwise       7/30/2013 4:45:02 PM

his evaluation whould tend to say your claim is bogus http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/wade-roll.jpg by any argument it shows that thier were worse which clearly disproves you
 
so you did finally bother to read it
 
Note that they only tested the Mk-IX Spitfire at 200-300 MPH and that all the other Spitfire tests were done on the post war Mk-21!
 
so why did they list it under the 300-400 as well!
 
When combined with the many Pilot's anecdotal stories, the opinions of people like Captain Brown who flew those tests and the fact that at up to 400 MPH, the Fw-190 was faster rolling than the post war Mk-21. I claim that the Mk-21 Spitfire was post war because of it's late entry into service squadrons, the very small numbers that were made and the absolute lack of even one Victory in actual combat.
 
actually yes the 21 had no air to air combat victories (until post war) but was also by then more a multirole rather than a pure fighter, the fw was a faster roller yet was convincingly beaten by MkXiVs  so maybe roll was not the be all and end all
 
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45-Shooter       7/30/2013 8:35:22 PM


So they must not have thought it was important until the Fw-190 showed them the error of their ways!

no they had the 109 to test against and the Spit outrolled the 109 at low and high speeds (and the later Spits How much later and what was the stick force standard that they used? They had to use such a standard because they, the RAF that is, were the ones who invented that procedure! rolled faster due to strengthed wings whilst the 109 slowed downThe ONLY Spits I've ever read about that rolled any faster than the rest were the clipped wing variants!
no that's LACK of evidence not evidence, evidence would be the test, that lack of evidence may just as likely support the fast rolling SPIT 
Not in the presence of contradictory evidence! 
and RoR tests on later types and the opinions of many test and fighter pilots who have flow with or against the Spitfire, like the quote from Captain Brown, that the Spitfire in ALL it's War time Variants was slower rolling than the German's and most other Nation's planes at high speed.

Firstly Winkle was refereeing to fw190s try reading his reports on the 109 in no model later than a E does he think its a match for a Spit, if you read more you will realise that he considered the MkXIV the best fighter of the war
His first report, the one you like to quote, was from a plane crash landed and then fixed up and tested. Since that plane and those testes were disputed by the RLM's numerous tests, I would have to agree that the RAF's test of captured Me-109s were defective for any number of a dozen reasons!
Secondly, The rest of Captain Brown's interview explains why he thinks the Mk-XIV was the best fighter plane of the war and the ability, or should I state lack of ability to "Snap Roll" was not part of it!
 
When combined with the inability of all here and elsewhere to find test reports that could be used to challenge that series of facts and well known opinions means that it therefore MUST be true! The Spitfire was one of the slowest Rolling planes of the war at higher speed!
not so, YES SO! as in the report I posted shows that the Spit was actually NOT regarded as quite a good roller even at speed, And not even the Spit Mk-21 could keep up with the FW-190! At least according to that test and chart you linked too! you seem to want to match a Mk1/2 against a fw190 rather than the MkV/IXNo, I just point out that the Spit-IX in the test must have had the clipped wings to do so well, much better than other late war tests of the standard Spitfires! Secondly, NONE of the Spitfires in that test which you linked to was as close as 75% of the 190's Rate of Roll.

its a diagram moron, in fact this would indicate that you didn't even bother looking at it, which would be par for the course with you
And that diagram shows that the Mk-IX and Mk-XIV where faster rolling than the German planes at low speeds, but not nearly as quick at higher speeds and were not tested, nor was any Spit tested at over 400 MPH!
 
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marat,jean       7/30/2013 8:44:51 PM
 
Marat speaks.
 
As I told you, Stewie, your nitpickery and LYING is not going to be allowed to go unchallenged. 
 
 
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45-Shooter       7/30/2013 10:45:12 PM

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/ ... 190a3.html
Exactly which of the hundred or so pages am I supposed to look at and how does it dispute anything I have ever written?

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/ ... 190a5.html
Ditto!   
from
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/
Ditto!
 
 

Marat speaks.
After much thought, I am sorry that I let you goad me into devolving to your level. I am sorry that I called you Ruski-ised names. PS. Where on all of those hundreds of pages does it show the RoR test results?



 
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marat,jean       7/30/2013 11:40:51 PM
And you are still a liar. Nothing prohibits me from describing your so called statements of fact as LIES at all, F>
 
 
 
 


http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/ ... 190a3.html

Exactly which of the hundred or so pages am I supposed to look at and how does it dispute anything I have ever written?


http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/ ... 190a5.html

Ditto!   
from
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/

Ditto!
 
 


Marat speaks.

After much thought, I am sorry that I let you goad me into devolving to your level. I am sorry that I called you Ruski-ised names. PS. Where on all of those hundreds of pages does it show the RoR test results?




 
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