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Subject: P-38 gun camera and maneuvers film!
45-Shooter    4/26/2013 4:58:59 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilArlZzLW-U http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e64O_6XXk-M http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3nddCJbcdI Watch this! At 15:16 watch this plane roll! So many neat details you will not believe your eyes! Puts paid to all that BS about not being able to maneuver with agility. Also; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oz8LHjSHuls
 
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45-Shooter       7/16/2013 7:26:54 PM


 
 
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45-Shooter       7/16/2013 7:39:28 PM

 
Testing methods were not that accurate back then. Because of the way video works, the time sync is perfect from every source, or it will not show!
 
So a video is sure to be perfectly timed because if it is not accurate, it will not show on your TV! So counting seconds on a video and watching the synchronised image is the best possible way to gather data.
It is currently recognised as such today! No-one would dare to use a stop watch in deference to video tape today!

But on the other hand, they do fly those old planes very gently in most cases not because they are not as frail as you think, or they would not be "Air worthy", but because they are incredibly valuable!
! an aircraft may be airworthy but if its 75 years old you do not want to apply to much stress either, valuable it is only if you haven't made a big hole in the ground with it
This is a very big mistake! It can not be both air worthy and frail due to age and still get it's cert! It is just not possible in any civilised Nation today. No-one wants to take on the liability that would entail!

 
Much faulty logic, or more exactly no logic at all in the red bits above.

 
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oldbutnotwise       7/17/2013 2:47:41 AM
esting methods were not that accurate back then. Because of the way video works, the time sync is perfect from every source, or it will not show!
 
So a video is sure to be perfectly timed because if it is not accurate, it will not show on your TV! So counting seconds on a video and watching the synchronised image is the best possible way to gather data.
It is currently recognised as such today! No-one would dare to use a stop watch in deference to video tape today!

thier is a huge difference between military use of tape and normal broadcast vt, one is timestamped to ensure accuracy the other isnt (no need for tthis additional cost)

But on the other hand, they do fly those old planes very gently in most cases not because they are not as frail as you think, or they would not be "Air worthy", but because they are incredibly valuable!
! an aircraft may be airworthy but if its 75 years old you do not want to apply to much stress either, valuable it is only if you haven't made a big hole in the ground with it
This is a very big mistake! It can not be both air worthy and frail due to age and still get it's cert! It is just not possible in any civilised Nation today. No-one wants to take on the liability that would entail!
 
no you are wrong, the air worthlyness certificate only states that the airframe it within certain bounds the fact alone that it is 75 y/o is cuase for concern and the reason why the insurance of a warbird is far higher than that of a modern plane 
 
Much faulty logic, or more exactly no logic at all in the red bits above.
 
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45-Shooter       7/17/2013 11:46:36 PM

But you can count the individual frames and know the time to much less than 1/60th of a second! (no need for tthis additional cost)

Much faulty logic, or more exactly no logic at all in the red bits above.


 
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oldbutnotwise       7/18/2013 3:00:04 AM
good coming from you
 
still havent explained how you are claiming a roll rate that exceeds that achieved by USAAF tests of the P38L?
 
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45-Shooter       7/18/2013 5:55:00 PM

still havent explained how you are claiming a roll rate that exceeds that achieved by USAAF tests of the P38L?
Because that is what it shows on the video on the link! So go watch it yourself and then tell me how long you think it takes that plane with that pilot pushing the un-boosted stick hard over to roll the plane! All the while talking and quoting the airspeed in Knots! 275 Knots to be exact! Keep a close eye on the instrument panel.


 
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marat,jean       7/18/2013 11:47:35 PM
It does not, Stewie.
 
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oldbutnotwise       7/19/2013 3:23:31 AM
ok two possibilities
 
1, you are right, this means that the tests performed by the USAAF/Navy were wrong, which means that the way they were tested was wrong (as the test could and were repeatable with the same results) now as this was the standard tests then it means that all such tests were wrong so cannot be compaired with your video
 
the fact that RAF tests closely match the results of the USAAF ones tend to indicate that the tests were a fair comparison, whilst you can dispute the absolute figures if you have a repreatable test then the results can be compaired and the these results show that the P38 wasnt that good.
 
so we have this, if your P38 rolls at 2000 degrees/sec or whatever in the video then applying the results of comparative test you can say that aircraft X which was 1.5 times better than the P38 in these tests can roll at 3000 degrees/sec
 
2, you are wrong - based on previous experiance of you posts this is the most likely answer, but as you are incapable of admitting one of your ideas is in error then I guess you cannot accept this answer and will no doubt some bizzard answer that makes no sense
 
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45-Shooter       7/26/2013 2:03:00 AM

still havent explained how you are claiming a roll rate that exceeds that achieved by USAAF tests of the P38L?

Because that Rate of Roll shown in the video does exceed that found in the tests! Back then, the tests were conducted under controlled conditions of limited stick pressure to make comps between different types of planes meaningful. Under real world conditions, even sixty year old planes can exceed those figures because of the way we, the USAAF that is, conducted those tests back then!
See the quotes from the last interview with Captain Eric Brown that I posted before this!

 
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45-Shooter       7/26/2013 2:19:01 AM

 whilst you can dispute the absolute figures if you have a repreatable test then the results can be compaired and the these results show that the P38 wasnt that good.Yes! Absolutely true! That is why they limited the stick forces to make the tests comparable, both between different pilots and different types of aircraft, both here and in England.
 
 

so we have this, if your P38 rolls at 2000 160/275 degrees/sec or whatever in the video then applying the results of comparative test you can say that aircraft X which was 1.5 times better than the P38 in these tests can roll at 3000 degrees/sec
No, the tests done back then are only comparable under those conditions because different aircraft behave differently under different loads! Case in point; The Spitfire's wing twisted so easily, that larger stick forces would only deflect the wing more and distort the results from those limited speed and stick force tests! This is why the Spitfires rate of roll deteriorated so much at higher speeds. The increased speed put higher loads on the wing's twisting moment and that reduced the rate of roll as clearly proven by later RAF tests. This was never rectified in any Spitfire! It was only with the Spiteful's new rectilinear, laminar flow wing of the American/Davis style construction that the plane became a world class Prop/recip fighter plane.
2, you are wrong - based on previous experiance of you posts this is the most likely answer, but as you are incapable of admitting one of your ideas is in error then I guess you cannot accept this answer and will no doubt some bizzard answer that makes no sense
See above and the posts of Captain Eric Brown's last interview regarding rates of roll and their relationships between English and German aircraft!


 
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