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Subject: Modify the B-17 into night bomber/low altatude streak bomber?
45-Shooter    2/14/2013 3:55:59 PM
Given the multiple lines of debate; B-17 Vs Lancaster Vs Mossy, I post the following question; To convert the B-17 from a day bomber into a night/streak bomber, remove the top, bottom and chin turrets, remove the waist and cheek guns and gunners, relocate the flight deck to just behind the bombadier's space so that there is onlythree or four crew! Install large spinners on the props and install a single 20 mm auto-cannon on a flexible "X" bow mount in the plexi nose. Reduction in frontal area, weight and increases in streamlinning make flight both much faster and much more efficient! Since there is room for four 4,000 pound MC bombs in the bomb bay, the shakles should be modified to hold those four heavy bombs if the larger shakle does not fit now. Otherwise eight 2,000 pound bombs should be the standard load. Given the 210-220 knot cruising speed of the Mossy required to make the placard range, the new faster B-17N/S should offer more of everything that makes the Mossy so neat?
 
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45-Shooter    Defective logic addressed!   7/25/2013 11:50:29 PM

if they cannot carry 3x2000lbs across the bay why is it clearly shown as a bomb option in the documentation? I've never seen this document! The only ones ever posted by anyone shows three 1000 pounders wide with few inches to spare. See this picture; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lancaster_bomb_bay_Jan_1944_IWM_CH_18554.jpg oh yes you never let a little thing like facts get in the way of your own ideas do you! In this picture, it clearly shows three 1000 pounders barely fit across the width of the bay. The British 1000 pounder is only 15" in diameter by 65" LOA!
5, why would buldged bay door restrict the amount of 2000lbs carried?I never said that it did. I stated that it was restricted WO the bulged doors!
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Avro_Lancaster.png  
 
Now look at this three view of the B-17 and note the width of the bomb bay in comparison to the wing span. Then look at the cross sections to find the height of the bay at over 7' tall. You are aware are you not that the bomb bay doors on the B17 are actually wider than the bomb bay, whils the Lancs are the same width? do please do some research as I am not feeding you anymore
The Lancaster's doors are NOT the same width inside as they are on the outside. See this pic!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lancaster_bomb_bay_Jan_1944_IWM_CH_18554.jpg
 Then you measure it and post the results!   the facts are simple the B17 did not I do not dispute this, so skip it! and could noty carry more than 1 2000lbs per side and could not carry  a 4000lbs internally, I do dispute this! these are facts No, they are your incorrect assumptions! and I provided sourcves to confirm, Like what? Posting a loading sketch is not the equal of posting blueprints! You are the one too narrow and mindless to learn! 


 
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marat,jean       7/26/2013 12:01:24 AM
Same tired lies repeated by the man, Stewart Davies.
 
reminder of who Davies IS.
 
 
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45-Shooter    Defective logic addressed!   7/26/2013 1:15:42 AM

Range: 2,000 mi
Where did you get these stats? There are many other figures for all of these stats, so you have to state a source.
http://av iationshoppe.com/manuals/b-17_flight_ handbook/b-17g_flight_handbook.html  Note that if you go to Chart # 75 it lists the maximum internal bomb load as 8 X 1,600 pounders = 12,800 pounds internal. It also lists several other sets of bomb load that exceed 8000 pounds, so it was possible in the stock B-17G to exceed 8000 pounds internally! Note this IS proof of that claim! Also note that the MTO on the chart below the bomb load chart lists a MTO of 70,000 pounds, while prior pages list the conditions for such heavy take offs! So according to the Official USAF Pilot's Manual, your data above is wrong! See the above link to know the truth!
 
B17 Bomb bay was 7 foot wide at its widest Wrong!- from that you need to deduct the 9" walkway Wrong again! The walk way is about 6" wide and is not at the bottom of the racks, but about 19" above the doors where the racks meet is only about 7" wide. and the bomb hangers and supports on either side,

The bay was only 8foot long No mater how you slice it, it's still larger than the Lancaster's bomb bay total volume.
 
but his volume measurements forget that not all that volume  is useable (he does tend to miss these little things I have noticed)
 
so we have (giving the B17 the benifit of the doubt that the whole bay could be used
 
7' x 8' x 7' (assuming his 7 foot height is correct) which gives a volume of 392 
now Lancaster
 
the bay was actually 5 foot wide not 4 foot No, it is not that wide. See this picture!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lancaster_bomb_bay_Jan_1944_IWM_CH_18554.jpg
it was 3 foot deep not 2 foot (difficult to fit a cookie in a 2 foot bay when they were nearly 3 foot in diameter)
From your own post above, the "Cookie" is 2'-6" OD! AND I stated the bay was that deep.
 
so that gives 3 x 5 x 33 = 495
In reality 4 X 2.5 X 33 = 330! The bay is not 5' wide! See the picture above and calculate the width based on the 15" OD of the 1000 pound bombs it contains! You must now admit that it is you who refuse to see and acknowledge  reality! See the depth which is clearly visible in that picture!



 
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45-Shooter    Defective logic addressed!   7/26/2013 1:18:24 AM
See the links in the two above posts to see the pics of Lanc bomb bay and it's true size and the link to the B-17G Pilot's Manual showing a internal load of 12,800 pounds! So id those three links prove their core arguments wrong, how much of the rest are wrong?

Noted that it is the 10th anniversary for the site. The saddest thing is how much popular the site would be without the trolls.



 
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marat,jean       7/26/2013 1:20:30 AM
Same tired lies repeated by the man, Stewart Davies.
 
reminder of who Davies IS.
 
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oldbutnotwise       7/26/2013 2:59:14 AM
See the links in the two above posts to see the pics of Lanc bomb bay and it's true size and the link to the B-17G Pilot's Manual showing a internal load of 12,800 pounds! So id those three links prove their core arguments wrong, how much of the rest are wrong?
 
finially you provide evidence, I will not dispute the fact that it could carry 12600 lbs if you use the 1800lbs bombs, you have provided evidence
 
however that SAME source clearly says that you can only carry 2x2000lbs internally and no 4000lbs iternally so will you admit that you are wroing in this your orginial claim?
 
oh and it also shows that it could orginial claim of what was it 34 500lbs was also wrong
 
 
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oldbutnotwise       7/26/2013 3:09:08 AM
if they cannot carry 3x2000lbs across the bay why is it clearly shown as a bomb option in the documentation? I've never seen this document! The only ones ever posted by anyone shows three 1000 pounders wide with few inches to spare. See this picture; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lancaster_bomb_bay_Jan_1944_IWM_CH_18554.jpg oh yes you never let a little thing like facts get in the way of your own ideas do you!In this picture, it clearly shows three 1000 pounders barely fit across the width of the bay. The British 1000 pounder is only 15" in diameter by 65" LOA!
5, why would buldged bay door restrict the amount of 2000lbs carried?I never said that it did. I stated that it was restricted WO the bulged doors!
the British 1000lbs was 18 inches not 15" as was the 2000lbs the ONLY restriction imparted in not having bulged doors was that it could not carry the 8000lbs or 12000lbs cookies all other loads were possible
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Avro_Lancaster.png   
 
 

The Lancaster's doors are NOT the same width inside as they are on the outside. See this pic!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lancaster_bomb_bay_Jan_1944_IWM_CH_18554.jpg
 
you can clearly tell that the bay hinge on the outside of the bay and that the bay is the full width this is clear from your own source 

 Then you measure it and post the results!   the facts are simple the B17 did not I do not dispute this, so skip it! and could noty carry more than 1 2000lbs per side and could not carry  a 4000lbs internally, I do dispute this!
 
dispute away but evidence of your own sources back up this claim
 
these are facts No, they are your incorrect assumptions! and I provided sourcves to confirm, Like what? Posting a loading sketch is not the equal of posting blueprints!
 
You are the one too narrow and mindless to learn!
 
thata a joke from you, I will accept sources that show me wrong (even if they show theortical loads and not those ever actually used) you however refused to accept anything that disagrees with your thoughts
 
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45-Shooter       8/2/2013 5:46:48 PM

See the links in the two above posts to see the pics of Lanc bomb bay and it's true size and the link to the B-17G Pilot's Manual showing a internal load of 12,800 pounds! So id those three links prove their core arguments wrong, how much of the rest are wrong?
finially you provide evidence, I will not dispute the fact that it could carry 12600 lbs if you use the 1800lbs bombs,
Actually it is 1,600 pound bombs, four on each side of the internal bomb bay. Note that there were numerous other options listed that come out to more than 8,000 pounds internally.
 
however that SAME source clearly says that you can only carry 2x2000lbs internally and no 4000lbs iternally so will you admit that you are wroing in this your orginial claim? You are wrong about that 2000 pounder limit! It lists four times 2000 pounders. But because it does not list a 4000 pound option, does not mean it can not be done, just that it was not done!
 
oh and it also shows that it could orginial claim of what was it 34 500lbs was also wrong
I got that from a public picture of a formation of three B-17s showing 440 pound incendiaries, easily recognized by their flat nose with bump and showing 34 of them in each string! That is 34 X 440 pounds = 14,960 pounds total.
 
 



 
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45-Shooter       8/2/2013 5:52:03 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lancaster_bomb_bay_Jan_1944_IWM_CH_18554.jpg oh yes you never let a little thing like facts get in the way of your own ideas do you!In this picture, it clearly shows three 1000 pounders barely fit across the width of the bay. The British 1000 pounder is only 15" in diameter by 65" LOA!
5, why would buldged bay door restrict the amount of 2000lbs carried?I never said that it did. I stated that it was restricted WO the bulged doors!


 
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marat,jean       8/2/2013 6:05:00 PM
Same tired lies repeated by the man, Stewart Davies.
 
reminder of who Davies IS
 
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