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Subject: Modify the B-17 into night bomber/low altatude streak bomber?
45-Shooter    2/14/2013 3:55:59 PM
Given the multiple lines of debate; B-17 Vs Lancaster Vs Mossy, I post the following question; To convert the B-17 from a day bomber into a night/streak bomber, remove the top, bottom and chin turrets, remove the waist and cheek guns and gunners, relocate the flight deck to just behind the bombadier's space so that there is onlythree or four crew! Install large spinners on the props and install a single 20 mm auto-cannon on a flexible "X" bow mount in the plexi nose. Reduction in frontal area, weight and increases in streamlinning make flight both much faster and much more efficient! Since there is room for four 4,000 pound MC bombs in the bomb bay, the shakles should be modified to hold those four heavy bombs if the larger shakle does not fit now. Otherwise eight 2,000 pound bombs should be the standard load. Given the 210-220 knot cruising speed of the Mossy required to make the placard range, the new faster B-17N/S should offer more of everything that makes the Mossy so neat?
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Maratabc       3/12/2013 5:03:47 PM
You are evasive. The chart does not show what you claim. I conclude that you do not know what you read or understand it at all.
Either that or you lie.
I am done with you.
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oldbutnotwise       3/12/2013 5:09:24 PM
well I suppose its not quite an 88mm but you are getting there, how is it that ONLY you have this information no 109 site, no 109 review, no written comment as to the fact, only YOU, just as its only YOU that think a 4000lbs could be carried internally on a B17 or that a B17 could carry 34 440lbs bombs or that it could carry 2 tallboys
do you see a pattern here?
only you think these things
why is that? only you in the thousands of professional and amateur historians think these things
and as you never provide and verifiable evidence yet expect to be believed despite  your track record on these things
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Maratabc       3/12/2013 5:09:59 PM
To explain to others why the the 108's were MOTOR CANNONS and not cowl guns...
It appears that the man who has wasted so many posts cannot be trusted to post the simple truth, nor can he be expected to be honest.
Sad really.
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oldbutnotwise       3/12/2013 5:11:24 PM
shooter please re read the source, those are POSSIBLE installations not all fitted at the same time
you are showing your ignorance again, blindly assuming that your reading of information is correct
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45-Shooter       3/12/2013 5:15:16 PM

oh and we are supposed to believe you? someone who readily admits his poor memory and has show a complete inability to correctly read sources yet you expect us to accept your story, sorry but that credibility left you many moons ago
But those sources posted by so many others do, if you read ever single PP, agree with me. The 6th PP on the one page lists the Me-109Z, one built with FIVE 30 mm cannons!
and we also know how accurate your assessment of space is, I seem to remember you claiming something similar for a hs404 in a spit that was proved to either poke though the prop disc or the cockpit 
That is easy enough to do if you have not seen it up close in person. But in the Museum of the USAF in Daton, I was able to put my entire baseball cap under the open cowl with the head band perpendicular to the bore WO touching any part of the plane! Now anyone I know can tell that the baseball cap is much larger than the breaCH END OF THE mG-151/15-20!
As to the Hisso protruding into the cockpit, or the prop disk, see this copy of a blue-print! Note that the length of the gun is not nearly as long as the nose of the plane behind the spinner mount disk! F" target="_blank">>" target="_blank">" target="_blank">> />The image of the entire plane on my screen is 320 mm long. The gun is about 84-85 mm long. The fire wall to the spinner plate is 98 mm long.
This image is particularly nice because the pannel lines are well defined and the Hisso's Breach buldges in the outer skin of the wings and the muzzels of those guns! As any one with eyes can see the gun is much shorter than the availible length that it COULD HAVE BEEN installed into!

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Maratabc       3/12/2013 5:17:41 PM
To old but not wise:
Why do you answer this one at all?
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45-Shooter       3/12/2013 5:22:46 PM

Type BF 109Z

Armament            position                          ammo   time                    additional                   Position    
2x30 mm MK 108 engines                           65 rpg 6 sec                   gunpod                       center wing  
2x30 mm MK 108 wings                              35 rpg 4 sec                    SC 500                        center wing
1x30 mm MK 108 center wing, gunpod    35 rpg 5 sec                    SC 500 + 2xSC250     center wing and belly 
I see that you cannot read a chart or you cannot tell the truth.

I have highlighted the important parts of that post! The background of the original article is that it was a Rustaz(Sp) kit that was installed in all planes and that it was also possible to mount up to all five 30MM cannons in the one plane!
But the important part and the only part that matters is the fact that they put TWO Mk-108s under the cowl over the engines in place of the two 13 mm HMGs!!! See the first yellow portion where it states 2X30 mm MK 108 engines!
This is the only part that counts! It is the part that prooves that two cannon can be installed under the cowl in place of two 13 mm HMGs!
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oldbutnotwise       3/12/2013 5:25:08 PM
I do wonder why I do it, mostly because I learn a great deal, if you read his posts it leads you to investigate as you just know it complete moopoo, but finding out the truth is fun, only problem is that he cannot see the truth even if you spoon feed him it
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oldbutnotwise       3/12/2013 5:27:39 PM
sorry to inform you that you have convinced no one (again)
go and find a single source that supports your claim (and no this site doesn't)
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45-Shooter       3/12/2013 5:29:35 PM
To explain to others why the the 108's were MOTOR CANNONS and not cowl guns...
They were "Engine" guns, not Motor Kannon! But most importantly of all, there were two of them! There is no way in heck that it is possible to fire two guns through the prop hub as in a Motor cannon!
-Will look this up in minutes!
    Will look this up in minutes!

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