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Subject: How to judge what the best fighter plane is?
45-Shooter    1/3/2013 5:09:26 PM
I would list the following traits in the order of their importance; 1. Cruising speed under combat conditions. 2. Range/Persistence under combat conditions. 3. Flight qualities, specifically the ability to point the nose at the target easily and a very high rate of roll. 4. CL Guns with high MV/BC and rates of fire. 5. Pitch response, IE the rate at which you can load the plane. 6. Climb at Military Power. In WW-II terms, that means ~75-80% throttle, rich mixture and appropriate pitch on the prop.( A setting that can be held for at least 30 minutes!) 7. Top speed! To escape or run down the target. 8. Lastly the ability to turn in the so called "Dog Fight"! After you rate these choices, I'll mark the list with what I think is the strength of each atribute.
 
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45-Shooter       1/17/2013 6:31:05 PM
16 is total rubbish and you know it, 16np is unlikely to move a yank tank from stationary (16hp mght be able to maintain a steady speed on a flat road without corners but thats about it)That is exactly right! Steady speed on a straight and flat road! That is, by the way, over 99% of all driving in every industrialised Nation on this planet!
I thik that the 14-cylinder Wärtsilä RT-flex96C engine with an output of 80,080 kW (108,920 bhp) at 102 rpm it would seem to disagree With what?
that 4 stroke engines dont produce power at low revs??? WOW! you pick a engine that operates on the TWO STROKE Principle to illistrate your argument about tourque! But wait you argument is even sillier than that... Because of inertia and gas dynamics, every single engine of ALL types has Speeds where it is MUCH more efficient than at others. With out making any other changes except to the CAM and ignition timeing, the power generated by my 8.85L, BBC can change from ~200 to 1200 HP! No wait, that is not exactly right. I would have to change the tappets too to make much over 800 HP.
what! how the hell can it run at 150% throttle? or is that power? just how do you get to 150% of something? Because the throttle has a wire across the gate at 100%. When you select WEP, or War Emergency Power, you break the wire and open the throttle more than 100%. The amount of over travle used and throttling used varis between aircraft and engine types with the same engine in different planes possibly having different throttle settings! I am truely ammaised that you were not awair of this. 

Er no, the wire restrictor you mention was firstly only on MkVs and later (and not all MKVs) and it was at 90% throttle you cannot have move than 100% of something without adding additional to it, to have 150% throttle you would need to add another throttle to it, 100% = all of something its in the definition 
Once again, I find it amaising to find that you are not awair of these simple facts. High-Blown engines that are expected to last more than a few seconds, NEVER run at full throttle at low altitudes! In fact, many blown engines never run at full throttle ever! Particularly those powered by turbo-superchargers. But mostly I find that your lack of understanding that the % numbers above deal with power produced
sorry but NO engine has 150% throttle regardeless of WEP How do you explain the differance between take off power, also known as 100% and WEP in the many different versions of the RR Merlin? For a single instance, the Packard V-1650 in the H model Mustang has a full throttle power of 1395 HP and 2,218 HP WEP! or anything else and if you think otherwise you are in need of a buit of research, wep gave at best 10% See above! and what has type go to du with it? Because the Prop, Prop Gearring, size of prop diamater and number and cord of the blades ALL have major impacts on the power the engine can produce. Then there is the L/D, total drag and Drag rise with Mach number of the plane it is fitted in that ALL also have a large effect of the power an engine makes. if you use 100% throttle you are at 100% throttle Not exactly! The engine is a terribly complex system and there are many reasons why an engine in a particular instalation my have more restriction adjusted in it's throttle than the exact same engine in some other aircraft! there is no more, if you have a limiter that restricts it to 90% then that gives you your WEP but the throttle is not 100% untill its though this limit 100% is fully open Not at all! WEP in one plane may not be the same power, or throttle opening in a different aircraft! 
Semantics and BS! ---- oh I see when you are corrected its symantics Like your drivvle above. and BS but whe you use it its fact and we are unable to see the truth, Like your drivvle above.
Why did the R-R Merlin in the Mk-IX Spitfire make more power than the same engine in the P-51B/C&D?
 
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45-Shooter       1/17/2013 7:55:50 PM

so you have a mpg figure (for a f150 not a f250! i  noticed) and a speed which gives a fuel consumption figure, and then by magic you have your hp figure!
Missed that, F150/250 bit, but am dyslexic? See; http://www.ford.com/most-fuel-efficient/?searchid=64864954|| 
" target="_blank">link

Magic? Not really! just calculate the HP from the fuel used! We know the range of efficiencies that reciprocating engines can acheave and the reasonable range of those numbers, thus any half smart Nerd could comput a range of power figures based on how much fuel is used. Given that those EPA numbers are both well tested by all concerned and verrified by the EPA, it is easy to compute those numbers!---Figure out how fast you are burning gasoline at 60mph and then calculate 9kw per
gallon. If you are burning 1 gallon an hour then you are using 9kw which would Where did you get 9Kw from?
translate to 60mpg . . . 30mpg would be 2gph or 18kw /750 watts per Horse Power
you end up with 24HP at 60mph.  so how is that 21hp ish at 22mpg? I get 3.54 GPH at 17 MPG and 2.73 GPH at 22 MPG. Multiplying buy 0.34 Pounds/HP/Hr gives 41.0 HP at 60 MPH, (3.54 GPH = 45.2 HP.) for the Super Duty F-250!
I was not able to find a single refferance to any F-1 Rule on maximum idle RPM at any place. Please provide link to same. ( Since it was your claim.)
From Wiki; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formula_One_engineslink />The bore... is the diameter of the cylinder in the engine block, and the stroke... is the distance the piston travels from top dead-centre (TDC) to bottom dead-centre (BDC) inside the cylinder. To operate at high engine speeds the stroke must be relatively short to prevent catastrophic failure, usually connecting rod failure as they are under very large stresses at these speeds. Having a short stroke means that a relatively large bore is required to make the 2.4 litre displacement. This results in a less efficient combustion stroke, especially at lower RPM.
 
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45-Shooter       1/17/2013 8:16:29 PM

AVERAGE German pilots needed less time to learn the plane and were more efficient in its use than AVERAGE allied pilots who had over FORTY switches and dials (P-47) to do what an FW 190 pilot could do with FOUR-manage his engine.
 
And THAT is the point. B.
So right you are!
 
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Belisarius1234    If you haven't noticed...   1/17/2013 9:48:13 PM
I've only addressed OBWN in this thread. There is a reason for that.
 
B.
 
 
 
 
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45-Shooter       1/18/2013 2:14:54 AM


I've only addressed OBWN in this thread. There is a reason for that.

 

B.

 

 

 

I think it would be terribly rude to ignore you, so I have not.
I also think you made a good point! Regardless of your intent.

 
 
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oldbutnotwise       1/18/2013 3:02:03 AM

   With out making any other changes except to the CAM and ignition timeing, the power generated by my 8.85L, BBC can change from ~200 to 1200 HP! No wait, that is not exactly right. I would have to change the tappets too to make much over 800 HP.
ohI like the way you change the subject, now its only 4 strokes, could you point to where you mention that? because you wee refering to intenal combustion engines,
Yeah go for it and see what happens
what! how the hell can it run at 150% throttle? or is that power? just how do you get to 150% of something? Because the throttle has a wire across the gate at 100%. When you select WEP, or War Emergency Power, you break the wire and open the throttle more than 100%. The amount of over travle used and throttling used varis between aircraft and engine types with the same engine in different planes possibly having different throttle settings! I am truely ammaised that you were not awair of this. 
were are taking throttle NOT horse power if the throttle is at 100% how can you open it more? you may for reliability limit full throttle use but that is limiting the use of 100% throttle not giving you 110% throttle try looking up what 100% is and then think am I saying throttle in my post OR HP
    


 
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oldbutnotwise       1/18/2013 3:12:53 AM
Er no, the wire restrictor you mention was firstly only on MkVs and later (and not all MKVs) and it was at 90% throttle you cannot have move than 100% of something without adding additional to it, to have 150% throttle you would need to add another throttle to it, 100% = all of something its in the definition
Once again, I find it amaising to find that you are not awair of these simple facts. High-Blown engines that are expected to last more than a few seconds, NEVER run at full throttle at low altitudes! In fact, many blown engines never run at full throttle ever! Particularly those powered by turbo-superchargers. But mostly I find that your lack of understanding that the % numbers above deal with power produce 
 Yet you are saying that they are at 150% throttle what a laugh, 100%+ throttle explain explain how you get that how do you open a throttle to 110% of its capability?

sorry but NO engine has 150% throttle regardeless of WEP How do you explain the differance between take off power, also known as 100% and WEP in the many different versions of the RR Merlin? For a single instance, the Packard V-1650 in the H model Mustang has a full throttle power of 1395 HP

No it had a full throttle of 2218 and a max safe continuos power setting of the throttle it is amazing how you do not see the diference (also this depended on the boost something seperate from the throttleand 2,218 HP WEP!

or anything else and if you think otherwise you are in need of a buit of research, wep gave at best 10% See above!
yes please do
and what has type go to du with it? Because the Prop, Prop Gearring, size of prop diamater and number and cord of the blades ALL have major impacts on the power the engine can produce. 
er NO none of the above have ANY effect on the power an engine can PRODUCE, use yes PRODUCE no

Then there is the L/D, total drag and Drag rise with Mach number of the plane it is fitted in that ALL also have a large effect of the power an engine makes.
No again (well practically no as the speed does give some little forced induction into the engine but on a forced induction engine this is so minor as to be safely ignored
if you use 100% throttle you are at 100% throttle Not exactly! The engine is a terribly complex system and there are many reasons why an engine in a particular instalation my have more restriction adjusted in it's throttle than the exact same engine in some other aircraft!
not talking aircraft we are talking engine and 100% is 100%. if its open fully its open why do you think that you can open to 1 and 1/2 times its maximum?
there is no more, if you have a limiter that restricts it to 90% then that gives you your WEP but the throttle is not 100% untill its though this limit 100% is fully open Not at all! WEP in one plane may not be the same power, or throttle opening in a different aircraft!
so? if its limited to 70% - 80%-90% or 99% its still limited to less than its full(100%) setting


Semantics and BS! ---- oh I see when you are corrected its symantics Like your drivvle above. and BS but whe you use it its fact and we are unable to see the truth, Like your drivvle above.
no the drivel is you trying to change excepted terms because you cannot admit you are wrong.
 
Why did the R-R Merlin in the Mk-IX Spitfire make more power than the same engine in the P-51B/C&D?
did it? from what I remember both were 1390hp
 
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oldbutnotwise       1/18/2013 7:40:49 AM
    I was not able to find a single refferance to any F-1 Rule on maximum idle RPM at any place. Please provide link to same. ( Since it was your claim.)
 
HA HA HA
(but if you want i can give you a hint - try the FIA website and F1 regulations strange place to find FIA regulations I will admitt but thats the french for you
 
relevant extract
 
5.6 Engine control :
5.6.1
The maximum delay allowed, computed from the respective signals as recorded by the ADR or ECU, between the accelerator pedal position input signal and the corresponding output demand being achieved is 50ms.
5.6.2 Teams may be required to demonstrate the accuracy of the engine configurations used by the ECU.
5.6.3 The maximum throttle target map in the ECU may only be used to avoid throttle target oscillations when the change of torque is small for a change of throttle position. It must not be used to artificially reduce the maximum engine torque.
The selection of the maximum throttle target map will be fixed during qualifying and race.
5.6.4 Engine control must not be influenced by clutch position, movement or operation.
5.6.5 The idle speed control target may not exceed 5,000rpm.
 

From Wiki; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formula_One_engines<br" target="_blank" /> link />The bore...... is the diameter of the cylinder in the engine block, and the stroke...... is the distance the piston travels from top dead-centre (TDC) to bottom dead-centre (BDC) inside the cylinder. To operate at high engine speeds the stroke must be relatively short to prevent catastrophic failure, usually connecting rod failure as they are under very large stresses at these speeds. Having a short stroke means that a relatively large bore is required to make the 2.4 litre displacement. This results in a less efficient combustion stroke, especially at lower RPM.
 
and? this measns that you are not getting 750hp at 5000rpm but what are you getting? and bear in mid that this is race car not a general purpose so you can accept compromises the Aircraft engine doesnt need to work at all revs either as thier will be a minum rpm underwhich it is pointless to run
 
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Belisarius1234    I don't discuss...    1/18/2013 8:04:17 AM
nonsense.



 



B.



 



 



 




I think it would be terribly rude to ignore you, so I have not.
I also think you made a good point! Regardless of your intent.

 

B.
 
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45-Shooter       1/18/2013 6:26:17 PM

With out making any other changes except to the CAM and ignition timeing, the power generated by my 8.85L, BBC can change from ~200 to 1200 HP! No wait, that is not exactly right. I would have to change the tappets too to make much over 800 HP.
ohI like the way you change the subject, now its only 4 strokes, could you point to where you mention that? because you wee refering to intenal combustion engines,
Well no, it was you who mentioned Four Strokes and then used a two stroke to make a snide comment about tourque at low RPMs. I pointed out that power is a function of many factors and that some or much more important than others!
 
what! how the hell can it run at 150% throttle? or is that power? just how do you get to 150% of something? Because the throttle has a wire across the gate at 100%. When you select WEP, or War Emergency Power, you break the wire and open the throttle more than 100%. The amount of over travle used and throttling used varis between aircraft and engine types with the same engine in different planes possibly having different throttle settings! I am truely ammaised that you were not awair of this. 
were are taking throttle NOT horse power if the throttle is at 100% how can you open it more? you may for reliability limit full throttle use but that is limiting the use of 100% throttle not giving you 110% throttle try looking up what 100% is and then think am I saying throttle in my post OR HP
Not all engines on all planes use full throttle to develope maximum power, mostly at low and medium altitudes! They are "Throttled" back to prevent damage to the internal parts at low altitude. Most engines that are high blown, IE make lots of power at high altitudes have significant restriction in the inlet at low altitudes, JUST to keep from blowing the thing up!

See page IX of "A history of aircraft piston engines" by Herschel Smith. The next to the last PP makes PART of this point. See page XIV FOR A TID-BIT ON DURRABILITY. Dratts! BUT MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL! Is the article starting on page 7 about "Altitude"! Maybe?

 
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