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Subject: How to judge what the best fighter plane is?
45-Shooter    1/3/2013 5:09:26 PM
I would list the following traits in the order of their importance; 1. Cruising speed under combat conditions. 2. Range/Persistence under combat conditions. 3. Flight qualities, specifically the ability to point the nose at the target easily and a very high rate of roll. 4. CL Guns with high MV/BC and rates of fire. 5. Pitch response, IE the rate at which you can load the plane. 6. Climb at Military Power. In WW-II terms, that means ~75-80% throttle, rich mixture and appropriate pitch on the prop.( A setting that can be held for at least 30 minutes!) 7. Top speed! To escape or run down the target. 8. Lastly the ability to turn in the so called "Dog Fight"! After you rate these choices, I'll mark the list with what I think is the strength of each atribute.
 
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Jabberwocky       4/16/2013 1:01:07 AM
My prior post (ie two before this) made NO REFERENCE to Spitfires doing 100 MPH IAS. Please take the time to correctly comprehend a response and work out who it is from before starting your own reply.
 
I deliberately referred to TAS all the way through my inital response to your query, regarding Spitfire Mk V climbing rates with a 30 gal tank.
 
You made no differentiation between TAS and IAS in your initial query. A Spitfire's climbing speed is NEVER at 135-145 mph unless you're looking at IAS. Even then, it doesn't drop below 145 mph until between 21,000 ft and 23,000 ft.
 
As altitude increases, so does the TRUE speed that a Spitfire climbs at. How you get "Average 134 mph" when even IAS doen't drop below 135 mph unitl 26,000 to 28,000 ft is a mystery of mathematics that not even Einstein could decipher


 
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Maratabc       4/16/2013 10:42:38 PM
Which is typical of the devious one, because he quotes in part himself, add an out of context quote from you, combines the two and expects the reader to believe that his lie and your statement were both made by you.

It is confusing, until you remember that this one called shooter either cannot keep who wrote what straight, or is deliberately misrepresenting

Since I have found him to be dishonest, it is more likely that he attempts to distort what was written.    
 
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45-Shooter       4/16/2013 11:45:54 PM

As usual the devious one either misread the data or does not understand what it means. Also as before I have asked him NOT to lie about what the data actually says. 
No, climb speed is determined by aircraft weight and lift Vs. speed. As speed goes up, induced drag goes down and friction goes up. Where those two lines on the graph cross, is the absolute best climb speed to have the highest possible rate of climb! Regardless of how much power the plane has, that single point of IAS will yield the best possible rate of climb! There is little to no variance of that singular IAS with altitude.
The problem with that number is that it is most likely a tactically bad choice. I have not seen a drag polar of the many various modals of spitfire, so can not guess at what that point is! But the numbers you quote are most likely related to tactical considerations, not the best climb speed. IE, the want to get to a certain point in space while maintaining sufficient air speed to prevent being meat on the table?
 
 
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45-Shooter       4/16/2013 11:51:37 PM


 
As altitude increases, so does the TRUE speed that a Spitfire climbs at. How you get "Average 134 mph" when even IAS doen't drop below 135 mph unitl 26,000 to 28,000 ft is a mystery of mathematics that not even Einstein could decipher
168 MPH + 100 MPH = 268 MPH / 2 = 134 MPH (Simple math!)
 





 
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Maratabc       4/17/2013 12:15:41 AM
Now he does a cut and paste to make himself sound like he knows what he discusses (note the correct grammar and spelling?), but does not realize that this text, too, makes nonsense of what he claims.
 
This is what I mean by his LYING.He thinks we are fools.
As usual the devious one either misread the data or does not understand what it means. Also as before I have asked him NOT to lie about what the data actually says. 
No, climb speed is determined by aircraft weight and lift Vs. speed. As speed goes up, induced drag goes down and friction goes up. Where those two lines on the graph cross, is the absolute best climb speed to have the highest possible rate of climb! Regardless of how much power the plane has, that single point of IAS will yield the best possible rate of climb! There is little to no variance of that singular IAS with altitude.
The problem with that number is that it is most likely a tactically bad choice. I have not seen a drag polar of the many various modals of spitfire, so can not guess at what that point is! But the numbers you quote are most likely related to tactical considerations, not the best climb speed. IE, the want to get to a certain point in space while maintaining sufficient air speed to prevent being meat on the table?
 
 
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Maratabc       4/17/2013 12:18:08 AM
WRONG! You cannot calculate that way. There are SIX altitude bands to be calculated. what kind of ignorance are you?
168 MPH + 100 MPH = 268 MPH / 2 = 134 MPH (Simple math!)
 





 
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45-Shooter       4/17/2013 5:40:10 PM

Now he does a cut and paste to make himself sound like he knows what he discusses (note the correct grammar and spelling?), but does not realize that this text, too, makes nonsense of what he claims.

No, climb speed is determined by aircraft weight and lift Vs. speed. As speed goes up, induced drag goes down and friction goes up. Where those two lines on the graph cross, is the absolute best climb speed to have the highest possible rate of climb! Regardless of how much power the plane has, that single point of IAS will yield the best possible rate of climb! There is little to no variance of that singular IAS with altitude.


The problem with that number is that it is most likely a tactically bad choice. I have not seen a drag polar of the many various modals of spitfire, so can not guess at what that point is! But the numbers you quote are most likely related to tactical considerations, not the best climb speed. IE, the want to get to a certain point in space while maintaining sufficient air speed to prevent being meat on the table?

 
You claim I "Cut and paste" the part in red above, yet you post no link to the source that I plagiarized! Believe it or not, I wrote it all by my self. I bet that you can not find any source document that is even remotely close to what I wrote above. But I do not care. You attack me instead of what I write. Is there any defect in the two PPs above? I think not. You are thus insignificant to this argument.
Secondly, in the part of my reply that I highlighted in yellow and recast in black, there is a kernel of truth that makes my point about all of this idea! IE Best climb speed does not change much with altitude as does the chart you posted before. So either all of the modern texts on aerodynamic theory are wrong, or the RAF set those speeds for other considerations at least in part. You pays your money and takes your choice! But put that choice in writing for us all to see.
 
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Maratabc       4/17/2013 7:06:16 PM
Why do I need to prove you did it when you did it for me? That you are too foolish to see that you did, just doubles the proof.
 
I laugh at you.
 
 
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45-Shooter       4/17/2013 8:36:00 PM


Why do I need to prove you did it when you did it for me? How? That you are too foolish to see that you did, just doubles the proof.

 

I laugh at you.
I am too nice to laugh at you. ( My mother taught me not to pick on those less fortunate than myself.) I do however pity you.
 
 



 
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Maratabc       4/17/2013 11:03:29 PM
Not to say this unkindly, but when one plays others for fools, spouts utter ignorance, is caught lying about what he said, and tries to mask his falsehoods with claims he never said what he said, he deserves everything in approbation that he earns, especially when he pretends to a moral superiority his proven lies do not justify.
 
So I laugh at you. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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