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Subject: How to judge what the best fighter plane is?
45-Shooter    1/3/2013 5:09:26 PM
I would list the following traits in the order of their importance; 1. Cruising speed under combat conditions. 2. Range/Persistence under combat conditions. 3. Flight qualities, specifically the ability to point the nose at the target easily and a very high rate of roll. 4. CL Guns with high MV/BC and rates of fire. 5. Pitch response, IE the rate at which you can load the plane. 6. Climb at Military Power. In WW-II terms, that means ~75-80% throttle, rich mixture and appropriate pitch on the prop.( A setting that can be held for at least 30 minutes!) 7. Top speed! To escape or run down the target. 8. Lastly the ability to turn in the so called "Dog Fight"! After you rate these choices, I'll mark the list with what I think is the strength of each atribute.
 
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Reactive       2/1/2013 8:18:05 PM
I'd go into hyperspace... 
 
 
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JFKY    If your hyperspace circuits   2/1/2013 9:02:56 PM
haven't been disabled.
 
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Belisarius1234       2/1/2013 11:56:22 PM


Sigh...


Let's look at the stupid problem outlined, for real?

The problem is that aircraft A is posited to be ambushed.

Aircraft B is currently three hundred meters behind aircraft A.

-what is aircraft A?

-what is aircraft B?
-is aircraft B above, below, left rear quadrant, right rear quadrant?
-where is the sun relative to the main baseline common vector?
-is there cloud?
-is the air wet or dry?
-what altitude?

These are questions to which you MUST know the answers.

-how much gee-load can aircraft A pull?

-how much gee-load can aircraft B pull?
-what is the type of AQM for aircraft A? (corner speed at best altitude band)
-what is the type of AQM for aircraft B? (corner speed at best altitude band)
-what is aircraft A's acceleration reserve (often referred to as gamma)
-what is aircraft B's acceleration reserve (often referred to as gamma)

These are questions smart pilots will want to know desperately.

-what is the normal or current armament state available to A? (guns seconds)

-what is the normal or current armament state available to B? (guns seconds)
-what is the normal or current consumables state for A?
-what is the normal or current consumables state for B?
 
These are questions most pilots would like to know before the fight starts, but can get by without answers, as how the enemy maneuvers will tell the smart pilot what those answers are soon enough. 
=================================================

1. Who says that plane A will roll? That might not be his best maneuver at whatever conditions he finds. Example: the USN doctrine for a dive bomber or torpedo plane surprised by an enemy fighter was a straight steep steep dive for the deck to level off in thick air just at about ground in wing effect altitude and dare an enemy fighter to come down so low to face plane A aft facing machine gun fire. That's suicide for plane B.

2. If the plane A banks into a turn, the curve and the fouled solution without a maneuver to maintain pull-lead for guns solution is IMMEDIATE. Wings never stop lifting or the plane FALLS

3. Now plane B is supposed to be at 90 degree bank and in a lag guns solution at beam aspect. Which way? Left turn? Right turn? Bullet drop will be about ¼ second at these stupid range numbers, the incompetent gives, but will still be bullet drop. So which way? It would be also nice to know if the IDIOT in plane B is above or below plane A. If he is below in a climbing turn, then plane A has him COLD in the next turn, because plane B can't shoot and he can't pull lead fast enough. He's going too damn fast-outside plane A's turn.If he is in a diving turn, then the idiot in plane B is dead from an S reverse, plane A pulls on him during the plane B overshoot.

4. At this point I'm suspicious and I wonder if this example was pulled from a VIDEO-GAME and copied?

ROTFLMAO.

 
B.



 
 
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45-Shooter       2/2/2013 1:33:01 PM

Let's look at the stupid problem outlined, for real?

The problem is that aircraft A is posited to be ambushed. True!     

Aircraft B is currently three hundred meters behind aircraft A.

-what is aircraft A? It does not matter.

-what is aircraft B? See above. What does matter is that B has speed to overtake A.
-is aircraft B above, below, left rear quadrant, right rear quadrant? Dead center 6!
-where is the sun relative to the main baseline common vector? It does not matter, except in that under the perfect conditions, again not realivant to the argument, the target might try to evade by stearing into the blinding sun, of clouds, etc.
-is there cloud? See above.
-is the air wet or dry? It does not matter.
-what altitude? This matters, so high enough that there is more than enough room to make any maneuver that either plane is cappible of performing.

These are questions to which you MUST know the answers.

-how much gee-load can aircraft A pull? More than the pilot can take WO "Blacking Out!

-how much gee-load can aircraft B pull? More than the pilot can take WO "Blacking Out!
-what is the type of AQM for aircraft A? (corner speed at best altitude band) Interesting, but not realivant. The start speed was stipulated by the typical "Combat Cruise Speed of the average fighter plane in WW-II.
-what is the type of AQM for aircraft B? (corner speed at best altitude band) Interesting, but not realivant. The start speed was stipulated by the typical "Attack Speed of the average fighter plane in WW-II.
-what is aircraft A's acceleration reserve (often referred to as gamma) Not much in the next five seconds that will determin if he lives or dies.
-what is aircraft B's acceleration reserve (often referred to as gamma) Less than Aircraft A, because he is going faster and thus has less reserve.

These are questions smart pilots will want to know desperately. If any of them matters in the last five seconds that will deside this engagement, I'd like to know which?

-what is the normal or current armament state available to A? (guns seconds) Full load commensurate with the type.

-what is the normal or current armament state available to B? (guns seconds) Full load commensurate with the type.
-what is the normal or current consumables state for A? Fifteen minutes worth of Combat Cruise and five minutes at WEP, plus RTB before Bingo.
-what is the normal or current consumables state for B? The same.
Continued in part two below. 



 
 
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45-Shooter       2/2/2013 1:34:14 PM

These are questions most pilots would like to know before the fight starts, but can get by without answers, as how the enemy maneuvers will tell the smart pilot what those answers are soon enough.  If the pilot of AC #A lives that long.
1. Who says that plane A will roll? That might not be his best maneuver at whatever conditions he finds. This is certainly true, BUT it was what was taught at the time. IE the "Break Turn". Example: the USN doctrine for a dive bomber or torpedo plane surprised by an enemy fighter was a straight steep steep dive for the deck to level off in thick air just at about ground in wing effect altitude and dare an enemy fighter to come down so low to face plane A aft facing machine gun fire. That's suicide for plane B.  No. That is the exact same 5 second oportunity to kill him before he goes that far. The bunt, turn or climb are all exactly the same. If the shooter can track shoot from 300 yards/meters over the next five seconds, the target is most likely destroyed before the end of the sixth second. How far can any plane go in five seconds to complete ANY maneuver? That is the real question and why maneuver is less important than speed and to a lesser degree size. 2. If the plane A banks into a turn, the curve  and the fouled solution without a maneuver to maintain pull-lead  for guns solution is IMMEDIATE. Wings never stop lifting or the plane FALLS  So what> does half an inch of rudder peddal still point the nose in such a way to "Drag the bullet stream" over the target?

3. Now plane B is supposed to be at 90 degree bank and in a lag guns solution at beam aspect. All wrong! Plane A never gets to be more than 15 -20 degrees aspect off. Which way? Left turn? Right turn? It does not matter. Bullet drop will be about ¼ second at these stupid range numbers, the incompetent gives, but will still be bullet drop. It does not matter. So which way? It does not matter.  It would be also nice to know if the IDIOT in plane B is above or below plane A. It does not matter.Although, I always prefer to be below, shooting up.  If he is below in a climbing turn, then plane A has him COLD in the next turn, But only if; 1. He survives the next five seconds, or 2. Plane 3B makes the worlds biggest mistake. because plane B can't shoot and he can't pull lead fast enough. This is a huge failure of the knowledge base and thought proccesses! How many degrees AoA can the average fighter plane of WW-II pull in just 1/2 second? Because that is the angle that he can point his guns to in that time. 15 degrees is less than any fighter plane in history, even heavy twins and the P-47. 15 degrees is 78.5 M at 300 M. That is full displacement of the bullet stream. The target can at say 12 Gs at 300 MPH only displace his possition with respect to the LOF by about 42M in twice that time. He's going too damn fast-outside plane A's turn. This is only true IF the two turn circles are concentric, which because of the displacement, they NEVER are! If he is in a diving turn, then the idiot in plane B is dead from an S reverse, plane A pulls on him during the plane B overshoot. Your consistant failure is to think that any of this goes past the five seconds it takes plane B to shoot down plane A!
4. At this point I'm suspicious and I wonder if this example was pulled from a VIDEO-GAME and copied?   

ROTFLMAO.

No, it is something I invented to teach in basic ACM class.

 












 



 
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Belisarius1234    And you are a LIAR.   2/2/2013 1:55:15 PM
If you were a teacher and taught that setup to prospective pilots then why is the angle-off WRONG you complete incompetent?
 
Sheesh, this one is MENTALLY INSANE.
 
B.
 
 
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45-Shooter       2/2/2013 2:18:04 PM


If you were a teacher and taught that setup to prospective pilots then why is the angle-off WRONG you complete incompetent?
The angle off is not wrong. Why do you even think it is wrong? To prove my point, the following instructions to do your own diagram. 1. Draw a line down the side of the paper. 2. Make a mark in the center of the line and a second mark about 1/4 of the way to the bottom of the line representing the distance between the two plane when they start to turn. 3. Draw a circle equal to the radius of the taget plane that is pulling 6Gs, tangent to the line with the point of origen at the center mark. 4. Repeat step three with a larger circle that is equal to that of a 4Gs. 5. Mark the travel of each plane acording to it's speed in one second intervals.6. Draw your own conclusions!
 
 

Sheesh, this one is MENTALLY INSANE.

 

B.

 



 
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Belisarius1234    Because I can figure it out?   2/2/2013 2:23:25 PM
Get professional help. You plainly live in a world of fantasy and delusion. 
 
B.
 
 
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45-Shooter       2/12/2013 3:42:17 PM

Get professional help. You plainly live in a world of fantasy and delusion. 
B.
Because you most certainly did not figure it out correctly!
 

Do you think air craft do not have inertia? Do you think they just change direction in an instant? Are you ignorant of the fact that pointing to nose also points the bullet stream half a mile away over that Angle of Attack? Almost all air fighter air craft can point the nose more than 15 degrees in less than half a second! How far from the line of fire can a plane go after it starts to change it's vector by pulling back on the stick in that half a second?
The entire point of the excercise is to make the student awair of the fact that if the shooter gets in behind you, you might as well just bend over and kiss your arse good buy! There is no defense! Unless the shooter is totally incompetent and very unlucky at the same time, he ALWAYS shoots the TARGET DOWN if he can get into this possition!

 
 
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Belisarius1234    Randy Cunningham   2/12/2013 6:34:49 PM
Incompetent.
 
B.
 
 
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