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Subject: Does anyone here believe this stuff?
45-Shooter    12/29/2011 6:46:30 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27qdB1D0s9M&feature=related Can anyone here tell me what is wrong with this video?
 
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BWisBack       1/5/2012 8:26:33 PM
No Herald , YOU are the clueless one here as well as being the worse troll I have ever seen .
You wave the flag even when it "burns" (sarcastic) ! If I was to say that the best stinking blue cheese is an american cheese , you would start to eat it right away , vomit it and say "This is made in the USA , Son . It 's the best !" .
lmao !
 
Cheers .
 
 
 
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heraldabc    You just go on believing that   1/5/2012 8:44:51 PM
truckdriver.
 
We'll see you around at the Liar's Club.
 
H.
" .
lmao !

 

Cheers .

 

 

 
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GeorgeSPatton    $0.02 of a lurker   1/5/2012 10:45:38 PM
Since joining this site a year and a half ago I'll admit I possessed the assumption that the Rafale, Typhoon and other new-generation Eurocanards were of the same class as the F22 and F35.  Maybe not equally capable but in the same league, possessing stealthy (VLO) features, etc.  Pretty much, I had a similar opinion of the nextgen Eurocanards that BW and FS have of the Rafale.  After getting the chance to read and learn from the various posters on this thread since that time I have been convinced that I was very, very wrong.
 
I actually want to thank BW and FS and others like  them, because if it had not been for you, I would not have learned as much as I did from posters like Herald, gf0012-aust, DA, and other posters with actual proven knowledge in the subject material.
 
Not that I think the Rafale isn't a fine aircraft, but I believe that it is far from the super plane it has been claimed to be.  BW, speaking as someone who was on your side, I just want to say that you did not make a convincing arguement in the face of those who know more than you about the subject matter.  I still have a great deal of respect for you as a person and a veteran, and inside of your area of expertise you have shown to be quite knowledgeable, but as far as aviation is concerned you are letting your bias towards your country and your favorite A/C get in the way of common sense.
 
Regards,
patton
 
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Reactive       1/5/2012 11:48:11 PM
^^^ + 1
 
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BWisBack    @Patton   1/6/2012 6:46:49 PM
You believe in what you want to , you 're a free man .
 
A couple of things , I have never said that I see the Dassault Rafale as equal to the F-22 in AtoA . Also , I personaly rate the Rafale as the best multirole fighter today and for the foreseeable futur . I am not the only person to think this way and some with far better knowledge than mine and who knows the ins and outs because they are part of foreign MoDs who did evaluate the Rafale also think this way . Here on StrategyPage , when you say that the Dassault Rafale won on technicals the evaluations of : Singapore , Korea , Switzerland and India , you are called a "troll" . SP has always been a pain in the a** site because it is full of so-called "experts" when they only are lazy armchair posters , incapable to do any homework especially when it is about French gears .
I don 't know who you are but you can 't be so naive , if I may say with all due respect . When I post a link quoting an official (him/her being French OR not) , the only response I get is a personal attack since it is easier to shoot at the messenger than to keep the mouth shut since I HAVE a case .
 
Now , what are the reasons why the Dassault Rafale constantly beat in technical evals any aircraft it has been put up against ??? Is it because a French Ex SF and now truck driver did phone every foreign minister of defense to boast his fav aircraft ??? I don 't think so .
 
If you may , let 's talk about something who can give some light to the conversation : the MMRCA contest in India .
There , the Russian Mig-35 , the Swedish Gripen-NG , the American F-16 and SH have all lost on technicals and have been discarded by the Indians for the better Typhoon and Rafale . It didn 't come as a surprise to anybody but to some diehard biased US people . Those still think that their old Teens are still the benchmark when they are in fact outclassed .
There , we can hear and read a lot of BS about how the Viper can still turn , how the US Aesa radars are are the best things after sliced bread , etc ... When the Typhoon flew the tech eval with a very early Captor-E prototype Aesa radar and when Dassault sent 2 Rafales with the RBE2-AA end product , the Indians had the opportunity to test them both against US Aesa radars , didn 't they ? Maybe the Indians also tested the quality of other onboard sensors and the overall sensor fusion , didn 't they . Maybe they also tested the various ECM suites to fit their needs , didn 't they ?
After that , some aircraft went home with their tails between their legs .
It is NOT my making but look carefully Patton , I WILL GET the stick for posting such facts
(More in a minute)
 
Cheers .
 
 
 
 
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BWisBack    @Patton   1/6/2012 6:58:07 PM
""The Rafale in the home stretch to win the Indian market
la Tribune, Jan 6


New Delhi will have next week all the elements to choose which of the French aircraft or the Eurofighter, will equip its Air Force.

From next week, the timing of the tender for the sale of 126 combat aircraft (M-MRCA project) with an amount initially estimated at $ 12 billion will accelerate. Started November 4, 2011 after the opening of envelopes containing the Dassault and Eurofighter consortium ( EADS , BAE Systems and Italy's Finmeccanica) commercial tender, the long and tedious work of synthesis of the Indian Air Force (Air Force) on the two bids submitted, should be completed next week. India buys not only a fighter but also the MCO (operational maintenance) and support equipment. The cost of ownership - the costs of combat aircraft throughout their lives, including in terms of fuel - should be decisive for the contract now valued at $ 20 billion and called "the mother of all deals ". A report should be sent without a break to the Indian Defence Minister, who will send it too Prime Minister Manmohan Singh.

One country against four

Policy makers will decide based on the operational side of both units and commercial proposal presented by the two manufacturers ... or not.

"The Rafale is supported by a country, Eurofighter by four", said a source familiar with the matter. In this respect, the German chancellor, Angela Merkel, wrote last month on behalf of the four European partners in the Eurofighter consortium (Germany, Britain, Italy and Spain) to Indian Prime Minister to encourage him to choose the Eurofighter, which has yet experienced two failures, one in Oman (in front of F-16 Lockheed Martin) and one in Switzerland where the Gripen has won (the Rafale was also nominated). It also encounters difficulties in Saudi Arabia, Riyad being unhappy about the aircraft delivered.

For now, it seems that the Rafale keeps an operational advantage over the Eurofighter, the Indian Air Force put the french aircraft ahead of its European rival. However, it is the ink bottle case with the commercial offerings. Ideally, the Rafale should be cheaper because in previous tenders, its price was, on average, between 10% to 15% cheaper than the Eurofighter. Unless, as suggested by some industrial partners in the Rafale, the Eurofighter program's competitors have made great efforts on the price of the unit to remain competitive. Because according to Indian rules, the lowest bidder is deemed the winner.""
 
Translated from :
h*tp://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-finance/industrie/aeronautique-defense/20120106trib000676128/le-rafale-dans-la-derniere-ligne-droite-pour-decrocher-le-marche-indien.html
 
Btw , here is the one and unique picture (AFAIK) of the real RBE2-AA :
http://i42.tinypic.com/wtac1d.jpg" /> 
 
The radar first flew on a M2000-B with a new nose to accomodate it :
 
http://i43.tinypic.com/nvz0cj.jpg" /> 
 
Cheers .
 
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BWisBack       1/6/2012 7:13:19 PM
More food for thoughts :
 
""Rafale : Analysis of the indian tender
Knowckers.org, Dec 30
[...]
One must note the specificity of the tender Indian: for reasons of domestic politics, the fight against corruption, it is sequenced in two phases clearly separated, the first purely technical and the second about the global offer. This decoupling ,also criticized by some Indian experts, implied that only the choice of the IAF has prevailed. To demonstrate the involvement of non-policy at this stage, the United States were informed of their misfortune by their military attaché in New Delhi, himself informed by the Indian military.

Omnirole fighter of 4th generation, Rafale's versatility is its major asset and perfectly fulfills the operational needs of the Indian Air Force, given the vastness of the Indian airspace. Able to fill all the roles of a fighter aircraft in one mission, it can ensure the safety of the national airspace and conduct missions outside. A trump card that could prove decisive when the withdrawal of Western forces from Afghanistan will allow Pakistan to recover the strategic depth it dreams in front of its big rival. On the other hand, planned from its conception to operate aboard aircraft carriers, it will allow India to take a qualitative leap forward in securing its maritime areas, which have become vital to the supply of raw materials to a economy bordering on double-digit growth. Technologically successful, it can carry a full range of advanced weapons, with also strategic nuclear strike thanxs to the F3 standard. Finally, its upgrade capabilities are unmatched to meet the challenge of reducing the technology gap with potential adversaries .
Moreover, the Rafale has almost always been technically and operationally ranked first in the previous tender, but it was not yet "battle proven", a label now earned by its commitments in Afghanistan and especially Libya, operation also more publicized. On the other hand, cooperation with Dassault is old: with the purchase of Mirage 2000 in the 80's
[1], India was the first export customer of Mirage 2000 and the modernization of this fleet was finalized between the two governments. The life of an aircraft like the Rafale is 40 years, New Delhi will have the same upgrade security than with the Mirage, which could be less guaranteed with the Eurofighter, the final EADS business plan presaging a medium-term withdrawal of the combat aircraft.

Finally, bilateral relations between France and India are excellent: the strategic partnership concluded in 1998 was reiterated during the visit of Alain Juppé in October[2]. France has consistently supported India's aspirations to a seat on the UN Security council and to a better participation in international forums like G8, G20 ...
Given these strengths, the denigration of the Rafale, at a crucial time when occurs the global trade negotiation, is truly amazing [she's talking of the leftist critics in France]. Talking about its past export failure provides sterile and unjustified criticism. The image of a France with a Gaullist anachronistic pride producing technology so sophisticated that nobody wants, and preferably within a national framework to be sure it's even more expensive, is totally wrong. France has not built Rafale in a European framework because its operational requirements, particularly for its aircraft carrier, were different. The Eurofighter is a money pit and has been referred bythe UK Court of Auditors with a 75% increase of its unit cost. It is currently more expensive than the Rafale! For countries like Korea and Singapore, France could not fight against the military protection that guaranteed them the power of the United States.""
 
Cheers .
 
 
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BWisBack    @Patton   1/6/2012 7:38:39 PM
Now , let 's see what the usual trolls have to say since what I post is not my making ....
 
Since it is a F-35 thread , should I post some US official reports showing the various and never ending technical problems of the prototypes ? Should we talk about the poor quality making , already plaguing the main airframe even if the aircraft did not open a quarter of its planned flight envelope ? Maybe we should talk about software glitches in the FCS who wen unnoticed during coding ? Or we may talk about the engine problems or the fuel pumps ?
We could also talk about the onboard oxygen system who almost killed US pilots on the F-22 ? 
No , we can 't talk about this here . It is not welcome since it goes against the so called US superiority in technology ...
 
To be honest , if we talk about a Navy fighter for the USN , an upgraded Tomcat (a la 2012) would outclass the SH by a mile and with the USN big "eyes" , it would also do better than the poor F-35 !
C 'Mon , 2 JDAMs and 2 Amraams when flying stealthy (?) ! Who do you want to scare ? Lichtenstein ???
A Russian or Chinese Flanker with its AWAC will refuse to engage because it is not worth it ! lol !
But what about a T-50 or a J-20 ?  ouch ...
 
They tried to put the best "gizmos" they have on a flying brick . Well done but it doesn 't fool anyone .
 
Cheers .
 
 
 
 
 
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GeorgeSPatton    @BW   1/6/2012 9:06:11 PM
A couple of things...
Firstly, you posted that the Rafale's price in this Indian competition was "on average, between 10% to 15% cheaper than the Eurofighter", yet a few lines down quoted that "according to Indian rules, the lowest bidder is deemed the winner".  Would this not then make the competition the Rafale won less about performance and more about price?
 
Even so, I have to reiterate the point that has been made time and again on this and other discussion boards: no one else has bought the Rafale in any of the sales evaluations it has been involved in, even in ones where it has come out well-placed, it has still managed to go unsold.  What this tells me is that even if it is as superior to the SAAB and the EF and the "teens" and the Russian fighters, it is not by a significant enough margin to justify its cost.  Although apparently the cost has been drastically reduced for the MRCA so I guess we'll see what the situation is now.
 
Secondly, lets stay away from prototype aircraft a la the T-50, J-XX, and F-35.  These A/C are not yet operational and comparing them to anything until they are in service and tested thoroughly is, quite frankly, useless.  Prototypes are prototypes and may vary greatly from the finished product.  As far as these specific A/C are concerned (as currently developed thus far), only one of them has shown any promise of being a VLO design, as there are design problems with the other two that seem to suggest only a moderate, if at all, LO capability.
 
Regards,
patton
 
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BWisBack    @Patton   1/6/2012 9:31:56 PM
I see that you took care of what I posted , thank you .
You said :
""Would this not then make the competition the Rafale won less about performance and more about price?""
 
Since it already won the technical evaluation , it is irrelevant . It comes down to ToT , futur upgrades and military ties .
India has just ordered 490 Mica missiles as part of a M2000 upgrade for 950 millions Euros which is a lot for a MK2 fleet .
Do they intend to use them on Rafale ?..
You also said :
""Secondly, lets stay away from prototype aircraft a la the T-50, J-XX, and F-35.  These A/C are not yet operational and comparing them to anything until they are in service and tested thoroughly is, quite frankly, useless. ""
 
I agree 100% !
Some here disagree mind , the usual unconditional diehard ...
 
Cheers .
 
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