Does anyone here believe this stuff?

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Subject: Does anyone here believe this stuff?
45-Shooter 12/29/2011 6:46:30 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27qdB1D0s9M&feature=related Can anyone here tell me what is wrong with this video?

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breaka @BW 12/31/2011 7:05:47 PM

You should probably proof your examples better - the first picture is a Rafale escorting a Fulcrum, not a Flanker. We've got plenty of experience with those. The third picture is actually an Indian Mirage 2000H, not a French M2k (look at the Roundels & Tail Flash). So that leaves Typhoon & Tornado pics from Indra Dhanush 07. Of course, the US started doing Cope India in '04, had the IAF over for Red Flag, the USN Hornets working with Malaysian SU-30s etc. Believe it or not, the US spends most of it's time training to defeat Russian/Chinese equipment sold to possible adversaries, and not sitting around worried about the M2K and Rafale.

Here's the problem with your model - the strike fighter, it's not going to be outmaneuvering anyone with external tanks and bombs on - take a look at the Rafale, which is 5.5G and .95M limited in A/G configuration with large tanks. If it jettisons its bombs, it is done as a striker and the DCA has done its mission. Same if it has to react to a SAM and jettison. Keep in mind, ground fire has killed a lot more aircraft then aerial combat in the last 40 years.

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45-Shooter help for those less fortunate intelects? 1/1/2012 1:04:55 PM

Don 't tell me , I already know

Cheers .

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heraldabc 1/1/2012 2:02:52 PM

Intellect is spelled with two l's.

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Phaid 1/2/2012 8:14:13 AM

Sometimes it is not during an exercise , like when this Flanker came too close to the CdG , soon shadowed by 2 Rafale M F1s.

LOL. That is a Yemeni AF Mig-29SMT on a joint exercise with the MN as part of the "Agapanthe 06" cruise.

There's only one "con" in this thread.

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StobieWan 1/3/2012 7:37:09 PM

Now , some talk about powerful Aesa radars (the other sides also have Aesa) , about EODAS , about powerful ECMs , etc ... Well , what 's the point if you can 't turn and run and come back again because your aircraft is sluggish and under-armed ??? And if you are called WVR by a Flanker with HMD , you are toast . Its energy and astonishing flight characteristics will kill you 9 times out of 10 .

Short legged? Compared to what? Last I heard we were talking 1200 nm with internal fuel only.

Enormous IR signature compared to what? Can't be any worse on a throttle setting for throttle setting comparison than anything else out there.

And as for the "can't turn around" thing - you do know that shots directly aft of the aircraft were demonstrated using helmet cued ASRAAM and AIM-9X almost a decade ago? Why do you need to come around if you got first look, first shot and presumably first kill?

Why do you value the HMD on the Flanker so much while discarding the far superior EODAS/EOTS combination on the F3?

F35 is generally described by pilots who've flown it as about as agile as an F16 with much better transonic thrust. Can't say that's sluggish, particularly not if it's toting missiles that can manage 80g off the rail.

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Reactive 1/3/2012 11:57:18 PM

We seem to have a delightful absence of BW for the last few days, let's savour these precious moments, you never get them back..

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BWisBack 1/4/2012 8:43:35 PM

@Breaka : Brain fart on my part , I was in a hurry and I posted a couple of pics without thinking much . My bad , I do deserve the stick

To my defense , I had to leave home to do some shopping for new years day 's dinner

@Phaid : sorry , same response .

@Breaka again , you said :

""If it jettisons its bombs, it is done as a striker and the DCA has done its mission.""

Yep , better try next time . Now , it never happens yet probably because the planning fits the aircraft to start with . I agree that Rafale never went to highly defended airspace and some could say that it hasn 't been fully tested in very harsh conditions , which is true . Nevertheless , Libya had still some decent air defenses even after the first 3 days of heavy bombing . French Rafale pilots talked about live SAMs trying to get a look and a lock without much success .

Wrt the F-35 , it DOES look good on paper but it is taking ages and tons of money to reach what would have been reached 3 to 5 years ago . Nothing of the "gizmos" have been tested in any meaningfull manner and we can only trust official pdfs which is not easy for many experts around (me not being included obviously as I 'm only an interested amateur) .

You also said :

""Keep in mind, ground fire has killed a lot more aircraft then aerial combat in the last 40 years.""

I don 't care about the last 40 years , I care about the last 10 and I 'm being realistic . Ground fire didn 't do much .

Now , it is interesting to see that a lot of people think that actual or next generation AtoA BVR missiles are going to change the game . If those people were just a little bit more in touch with Operatives , they would know that it NOT GOING to be the case (it is the reason why the Rand study (?) has to be discarded) .

If we take the time to check the numbers from the last 20 years , we see that BVR missiles (when fired BVR) are not very efficient , their actual kill-ratio is rather low while WVR missiles are doing most of the job which indicates that WVR combat and dogfight is still the best way to kill the other . As I said multiple times , unless BVR missiles are equipped with Aesa radars , they don 't stand a chance versus top notch ECMs . There is no way anymore to get called by surprise because of long range DDMs so a driver WILL KNOW that he has been fired at and he will know where from and at what distance the firing aircraft is . Late 4.5 gen and 5th gen aircraft can do this , as we all know that .

Close to medium range IR missiles stand more chance to hit than RF driven missiles fired from over 50km . This is a fact Gentlemen .

Stealth based on X band with a coating capable to lower the missile radar 's "pings" on various K bands is of no use versus IR seekers , them being from IRSTs , Pods or missile seekers .

It seems that we are going to "turn and burn" ... In fact , it is where pilot skill counts as well as what "horse" he 's riding .

Since Eurocanards are all better dogfighters than the mighty F-16 Viper and since the Flankers are also better dogfighters than the same Viper , some are asking what the F-35 could do !?

Myself , I simply don 't believe that it can match a Blk-15/30 (the lighter Blk with the best TWR) in dogfight . A Fulcrum could probably give it some sweat if you ask me . The EODAS/EOTS seems like an excellent piece of kit but in case of a "shoot-over-the-shoulder" , it is a last defense trick with a very short range shot .

It is still better than nothing , I agree 100% .

Rafale new DDMs can do that too . No Flankers is equipped with such a system , mind .

(Part 1)

Cheers .

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BWisBack 1/4/2012 8:45:41 PM

(Part 2)

We have to keep in mind that we are talking about a "futur" aircraft and not an operational one , so little can be said or posed as fact . Time will tell and I am not very optimistic to say the least .
Then , it is short-legged . "One way ticket" 1200nm will bring you nowhere if we talk about a stealth Navy fighter .
Unless you want to compromise its RF stealth by adding external fuel tanks (like we all do) , it is short-legged . Most AtoG missions flown from a carrier are longer than that and the "way out" is as important as the "way in" , which need a lot of fuel .
Tankers are only available on the way in , remember .
A clean Flanker as twice the range of a clean F-35 and with much better flight characteristics at any altitude or speed . The Flanker has the energy and the fuel to chase and kill some F-35s on its way in and still accelerate on its way back .
This is what some of the Australians and others are about .
The Typhoon and the Rafale don 't have that kind of problem with the Flanker , they can try to keep up at high altitude and fast speed (where the F-35 is not at ease) while having the capability to take it on WVR , the Rafale comes to mind with its astonishing manoeuvrability and top notch IR Micas .

Cheers .

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heraldabc And sanity time is over. 1/4/2012 10:17:43 PM

He's back.

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heraldabc 1/4/2012 10:25:17 PM

And still clueless.

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