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Subject: Rafale Proves Itself
SYSOP    8/7/2011 7:59:23 AM
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heraldabc    Truth hurts doesn't it, Hollow?   12/15/2011 2:01:06 PM
COMBAT teaches. The USAF and its allies and opponents have decades of air warfare experience. French AdA time is measured in mere months
You could see that inexperience in the wrong way the Rafale was designed.




ROFL another basic frensh bashing, you are so twisted vs French HH that you get really funny!


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halloweene       12/15/2011 3:20:11 PM
Following the same path, France  has millenars of fighting experience...Therefore US are newbies...
Btw, decades of what when u go to UK?
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heraldabc    Don't go there    12/15/2011 3:50:38 PM
From Agincourt to the Ardennes to Diem bin Phu-HOW did France do?
Don't boast. We in two hundred fifty years have done MUCH better than France in a thousand. We still do better NOW
I won't speak for the British in specifics, (others can) but the RAF has seen a LOT of service and has a lot.of Cold War and Mideast combat experience. More than the modern French AdA has in its entire existence.   

Following the same path, France  has millenars of fighting experience...Therefore US are newbies...

Btw, decades of what when u go to UK?

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Reactive       12/15/2011 5:23:45 PM
A catergorical "nothing can't detect or jam the LPI radar of platform X" is completely ignorant and wishful thinking at best. Whether a specific platform Y could do this is yet another question, but who are we to claim "fact" with certainity when NO ONE here is all relevant data at hand? Just food for thought. Otherwise this thread is a smash fest which goes down hill, as usual.  
I don't think anyone's said that specifically, just that the advantage is generally on the side of those with the more advanced antennae designs and bigger development budgets, LPI is a term that's been in use for several decades to define endless ways of obfuscating detection and jamming and includes radar designs that are undoubtably now vulnerable, it's an evolving picture and always will be, I just find it bizarre that SPECTRA is always claimed to be something it isn't, it's primarily a self-protection suite and not an offensive jamming system. Exploits for jamming in radar designs are worked out through espionage and analysis, not performed on the fly, the software has to know what it's dealing with and if it doesn't it's got very little chance. Russia is very protective over the latest S-400 probably for this very reason. 
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45-Shooter       12/15/2011 9:44:58 PM

Sry herald, but M88 is quoted 7.5 tons please revise, check sources and post AFTER
Tho i'd be sad , i'd lose my daily fun! F11 pw 229 is the present one on US F16.
All in all you are persistent in faith instead of  knowledge, how comfortable...
@shooter, plz check any data i gave (except UAE pilots testimony, uncheckable) and tell me which is wrong
again its very nice from you to notice that rafale with 5000 kgs payload has the same T/W ratio as F16 with 3.700 kgs load (reread yourself, that is exactly what you wrote, except on the FALSE data about M88 thrust ROFL)

Lets see I posited an attack mission with four Mk-84JDAMs and a CL tank, but WO Conformal tanks, you replied with a ridicules idea that the radius is 50% of range for a fighter mission! In reality, it is never as much as 45%, (Reserves!) and often as little as 25% of range. Second the config you posted is an absolute failure in the attack mission because there are no bombs on board. Then there is the cruise config in which the GE-110 has more thrust at part throttle while delivering better SFC than the pair of M-88/2s! Do not forget that it is a high bypass fanjet while the M-88 is not even close. Lastly see the copy of Janes assessment of the Indian eval and the questions asked by every single player that the Rafale has never answered, like letting a foreign pilot prove the so called "Supercruise" RIGHT! If it shows up on ATC Radar with the transponder turned off then there is no LO! As to the crap about AWACs and the supposed 185 Km radar range... Right. See the comment below on the quality of all the radars concerned. Lastly your comment on the T/W differences; RIGHT AGAIN! The Rafale's 9.1-9.3-9.5 Tonne EEW is pure fantasy! See the EEW of the Naval version that is suppossedly only 500 KG heavier! It weighs >11 Tonnes! 500 KG My bright red b*tt! It does not include much of the equipment required like Spectra, EW suite, many antennas ( See Photos YOU POSTED with out the chin side sets(2) RIGHT!) The real numbers in your idea are: Rafale EEW >10T+ 4*112MICA+150 rounds 30mm*.735= 110Kg+Pilot = 90 Kg 4.7 tonnes of fuel = GRAND Total 15.348T/2*70Kn ( temp limits!) = .93/1! I will not discuss the effects of toting around four large bombs or the three DTs required to equal F-16 radius with two!

Same calcs for F-16-B60 EEW <8.6T+ Pilot @ 90 Kg, 4*152Kg, 511 rounds of 20 mm*.253 = <9.1 T + <3.2T fuel = <12.3 T/127Kn = 1.055

Finally, think hard about the comments below concerning weapons fit and radars. The Rafale is NOT the equal of the F-16 Block 60, of which 4,400 have been made and sold world wide! Exactly how many Rafales have been sold both in and outside of France? RIGHT!
See part two for Janes Eval article!
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45-Shooter    What is a DAC?   12/15/2011 10:10:40 PM
Just curious? With so many acronyms about, I have a hard time recalling which is what.
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45-Shooter    Single sentance reply to French tacticle claims!   12/15/2011 10:18:08 PM
Dien Bien Phu!
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45-Shooter    Rafale T/W keeps getting deeper in the crapper!   12/15/2011 10:56:54 PM
The Increased Performance Engine (IPE) program led to the 29,588 lbf (131.6 kN) F110-GE-129 on the Block 50 and 29,160 lbf (129.4 kN) F100-PW-229 on the Block 52. F-16s began flying with these IPE engines in the early 1990s. Altogether, of the 1,446 F-16C/Ds ordered by the USAF, 556 were fitted with F100-series engines and 890 with F110s.[35] The United Arab Emirates’ Block 60 is powered by the General Electric F110-GE-132 turbofan, which is rated at a maximum thrust of 32,500 lbf (144.6 kN), the highest developed for the F-16.[68][69]
I need to read more and depend less on my admittedly frail memory! While the M-88-2 is forced to reduce it's turbine inlet temp and thus produce even less thrust, the new build F-16-60 gets a new inlet and 32,500 Lbs of static thrust! Lets see how that works out, lighter plane with more thrust from it's one less expencive and more durable engine, OR less thrust from two more expencive engines that do not last as long. I still can not beilieve that Nations are not bashing down French doors to buy this thing?
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heraldabc       12/16/2011 6:45:42 AM

Just curious? With so many acronyms about, I have a hard time recalling which is what.

Look it up.
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BWisBack       12/16/2011 6:45:54 AM
Maybe you know your bit on the F-16 but you know too little on the Rafale to be able to talk about , here are some numbers for you .
First , the actual Rafales are not flying anymore with the M88-2 but with the M88-2E4 (the ECO version) .
Differences are :
----Three-dimensional high-pressure (HP) compressor.
----Turbine blades.
----Blisks (one-piece blades and discs).
----Improved thermal coatings on the HP turbine.
----Advanced cooling channels for the combustion chamber.
Noticeable technological progresses:
(thanks Wingman)
On the original M88-2 , the TIT (Turbine Inlet Temperature) was as high as 1577°C  (1800 K) . Now , it should be over
1650°C .
The "temp limit" is an urban legend started by Herald and other biaised bashers .
Thanks to its M-88-2E4s :
""“Pilots routinely take off with four MICA air-to-air missiles, three or six AASM Hammer precision-guided bombs, a Thales Damocles laser targeting pod or a Reco NG reconnaissance pod and two drop tanks….
Transit to Libya is flown at 50% power setting, which translates to Mach 0.9 cruise speed""
(From Flight International)
Try that with a F-16 !
To make it short , the F-16 can 't compete in T/W and in range and it can 't compete in aerodynamism and in manoeuvrability , period . The Rafale has been constantly beating the US Blk-25s , the Greek Blk-52s and the UAE Blk-60s in both BVR and WVR .
Btw , the M2000-5 or -9 also beats the Viper (ask the Greeks or the UAE as they use both kind) .
@Herald :
""The French, not so much. Not enough combat experience for them to know what to do""
Ridiculous .
""We don't trust them at all.""
YOU Herald don 't trus us , your pilots do .
Wrt LPI vs RWR , we have to agree to disagree . Maybe we should talk about RWR+ECMs vs monopulse radars (missiles 's radars) . There , systems like Spectra and Praetorian (Typhoon) make the fighters almost impervious to RF missiles .
Against techniques like up-link cancellation and cross-eye jamming , RF missiles are powerless as the jamming is undetectable so HoJ (home on jam) can 't be used .
See there :
Yes aircraft like Rafale and Typhoon are detected on radar but to kill them is a different story .
Cheers .
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