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Subject: Rafale Proves Itself
SYSOP    8/7/2011 7:59:23 AM
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heraldabc    Then you missed two channelk discrimination or a 3 d target??   12/13/2011 3:30:56 PM
Its NOT HARD to trip you up, truck driver.
You can't even handle the text, much less the math. By the way, that is how signal retransmit is defeated. Want to know how SPECTRA fails to detect?  See if you can dig THAT out of the article. 

Herald :

""I put the NASA article up,  truckdriver. That is DATA that shows exactly how SPECTRA is defeated and how the Rafale is a giant radar target to an AESA radar.""


That 's a big negative Herald . This nice article doesn 't prove what you say , in fact it is light years off topic . 

Did you ever read it ? If you indeed did , you understood nothing of it . Again , you post irrelevant material ... 


Cheers .

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BWisBack       12/13/2011 5:14:03 PM
Herald :
""want to know how Spectra fails to detect ?""
No , I want to know how you come to such silly conclusion . I also want you to explain to us how you feel about the following , from the latest FoxThree publication :
""Such was the confidence of the French aircrews in their new mount that all missions were conducted without any support from dedicated electronic warfare and SEAD (Suppression of Enemy Air Defences) assets: thanks to itsSpectra state-of-the-art electronicwarfare/self-defence suite, theRafale was able to operate atwill in a dangerous environment,against a dense network of deadlysurface-to-air missile systems.
Even more significant is the fact that the Rafale was able to accurately locate enemy air-defence systems and engage them."
"Such is the quality of the Spectra electronic warfare suite that the Rafale literally disappeared from the radar screens of the Libyan Air Force while performing ‘soft kills’ on the enemy radar systems. Spectra relies on advanced jamming modes and jamming techniques to defeat hostile weapon systems and to hide the progression and whereabouts of the fighter.
According to Lieutenant General Patrick Chareix, of the French Air Force CDAOA staff, this fact was proven on several occasions during the initial phase of the interdiction campaign over Libya where the Rafales operated without the need of any dedicated SEAD asset —and to the big surprise of the USAF theatre commander on one specific action against a Libyan SA-3 “Goa” SAM site in March 2011!.""
Excuse me in advance for believing French miltary personal over your ... opinion .
Herald , there is so much  available data on Spectra that I can 't believe that you still write the same BS than years ago .
Cheers .
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heraldabc       12/13/2011 5:22:53 PM
I think you are HILARIOUS. We flew prop powered robots into there with impunity. You seriously made me spit out my tea with the CRAP you posted, it was so funny.
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Reactive       12/13/2011 5:38:40 PM
Ignoring the recurrent idiocy of BW for a moment. 
How do you take your tea? 
I'm always glad to hear when people in the US drink tea, it gives me hope that all was not in vain : P
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BWisBack       12/13/2011 5:51:53 PM
Herald :
""I think you are HILARIOUS.""
Who , me ? What I find hilarious is the fact that you deny everything , even when it comes from kown NATO operatives
You should explain your view to them not to me . I only copy/paste THEIR words . But of course , you are the one who knows better , you have such a great view of the electronic reality from your PC  ...
I see that Reactive hasn 't changed either ... You all are clowns .
Cheers .
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heraldabc       12/13/2011 6:40:39 PM
Hot and bitter, R. Hot and bitter. Can't you tell?



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Reactive       12/13/2011 7:40:48 PM
Haha, yes, I certainly wouldn't presume an American would put milk in it! 
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45-Shooter       12/13/2011 9:21:04 PM

Better plane tell me which one is atm better?

From what you are saying, its an foreign product.  Apart from F22 (which is not sold to foreign countries and have no A2G) abilities, tell me which?

And yes Swiss chose Gripen because they considered that it was sufficient for them despite poorest tech eval. and way cheaper.

It is their choice , maybe sensible.

The original spec was for a 8-9 tonne plane with a MTO of 15-18T, but the other partners wanted a heavier plane and the dispute broke the partnership. Note that in the mean time it has grown to about 50% larger than the originally planned size! The original sales plan was to replace the thousand or so of Mirage fighter/bombers sold previously. But given the choice between a plane marginally larger and slightly more capable that the M-III, many former Mirage customers bought the F-16 instead.

So the French Government recast the Rafale into a much larger plane, about what the rest of the original consortium wanted, about the size of Typhoon. But the engine design was to far advanced and there were limits to the size of plane it could power and still meet the performance minima. Thus as the war load grew, the performance fell off until where it requires three tanks to equal the range/payload of the F-16 with two Mk-84 JDAMs. You see planes with higher aspect ratios and conventional tails have less induced drag and thus better range/cruise performance. Think about it. The USAF could have had any planform they wanted, but made the active choice to go with the conventional. Same story with the F-35. The Boeing plane had better numbers all around except range which was equal in spite of it's heavier weight.

As to your question; The F-16, Block 60 is superior to the Rafale in more than a few of the many parameters! In a lightly loaded condition, with fuel for combat and RTB at range, ( Four missiles and CL Tank for the F-16 and four missiles and two wing tanks for the Rafale!) it will have little trouble dealing with the Rafale! Higher T/W and aspect ratio, combined with the reclined seat make instantaneous maneuvers faster and sustained maneuvers longer. It is a fact of life and you continuously fail to perceive it! Then there is the haul two, or four big bombs to there and back where the F-16 has about a 44-61 Nmi advantage in radius! This is a second fact that you have never acknowledged. I would also site the four missiles and no tanks T/W and Fuel Persistence where the F-16 has a significant advantage in ACM! This is not really relevant because of the reduced radius of action of both planes in this mission. So if we use the criteria above then the F-16 is the superior plane. But being an AVIONICs Weenie of the first magnatude, I like the performance of the proven radar in the F-16 over the less capable radar in the Rafale! This is a critical mission requirement! Your failure to realize these substantial defects such as small antennas in both planes, compared to larger planes like the F/A-18, F-15, F/A-22, F-35 and even the Typhoon! There is nothing that signal processing can do to overcome the lack of antenna area! Just one more failure of the French thought processes! Lastly they thought that it would be easy to transfer miniature model stealth to the real thing. Boy did they miss the boat there! Believe me when I tell you that if it actually had the least little bit of actual stealth, some one would have bought it by now! The ravings of test pilots and company engineers who have a vested interest in selling the plane feeds fan boys like you with BS into thinking that it is a much better plane than it is. If it was even half that good, why has no one bought it? (The ultimate question!)

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45-Shooter       12/13/2011 9:47:01 PM

45-Shooter , you said : 

""See the dump doors behind the inlets? They feed air to the engine any time the inlet ram pressure is not sufficient to keep them closed with respect to the ambient pressure outside of the inlets! "" 

Wrong . Look :" /> 

 These doors have nothing to do with the engines airflow . Their role is to allow cold airflow around the engines to diminish the rear heat signature . Only 2 aircraft are using this trick , Rafale and F-22 .

I would point out that the second picture you post, different by the way from the first is even more clear. The open doors you circled are inlets, not exhausts! The slope of the door is front to back letting air at the leading edge (Front) into the engine. Those doors pop open any time that the air pressure on the inside is less than the air pressure on the out side!

As to your claim that only Rafale and F-22 use them? Are you completely ignorant? Or just Franco-psychotic? Look up Harrier, F-14 and a hundred others. Then there is your idiotic claim that the splitters do not spill air compressed by the strakes? ROFLMAO! Your explanation aside, the splitters dump stagnant air that was compressed by the strakes who's true function is to turn the airstream so that it is parallel to the inlet, not compress it! Again the inlet doors you circled were added after flight tests. The prototype did not have them because of their deleterious effect on Low Observables!

You know so little about it that I can not continue this conversation!

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45-Shooter    Talk about the blind leading the blind?   12/13/2011 10:00:47 PM

Herald , these doors are not "dumpdoors" , they are entries for cold air . The cold air is running in between the engines and the airframe to hide the heat from outside . The air is then mixed with the exhaust .

The inlet doors you circled are exactly that, auxiliary inlet doors. you can push them open with your hand. Easily!

The vents that admit cold air into the space between the engine and bay wall are the small triangle/funnel shaped NACA flush inlets just behind and inside the aux inlets. Look just about the point where the splitter plates dump the air between the fuse and inlet bulge. They are open all the time. The Aux Inlets are only open when the engine is sucking more air than the cross section of the inlet will admit! Read a book, or eight. Get some knowledge, you need it! Stop attacking me Not because it bothers me, but because it is a frightful waist of time. Your time!

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